When should you run from a dangerous board

Tough question!
#1 there are a lot of scared willy nilly's out there if you read a lot of post...they constantly tell you to look for the bigest rock to crawl under and hide!...They say muck that hand and look for a better opportunity!

Yes a pair on the board can be tripps, a full house or even quads!
Yes 3 suited cards can be a flush!
Yes 3 cards to a str8 can be a str8!
Yes gapped cards can be a str8 if there are 3 of them
Yes 1 card on board can be a set
Yes if the opponent is betting heavy he can have 2 pair!
Yes if you have bottom or mid pair your opponent can have top pair!
Yes if you have top pair, your opponent can have top pair higher kicker!
Yes if you have top pair best kicker your opponent can have the top pair and another pair!

When does it end?...do you ever play a hand?...or do you constantly look for rocks to hide under?

Not only the dangers of the board, but then, only play certain hands from certain positions and then only if certain criteria is met...hmmm I hope the dealer knows when to give you those cards!

In many cases if you strictly followed all the guidelines you would only attempt to play 1 hand an hour and then when you did attempt to play the hand...the flop would be ugly to your pocket cards and you would fold them!...and then, try again next hour....In large 4 or 5 hour tournaments that might mean 4 or 5 attempts and maybe getting 1 hand....that the flop kind of likes!...playing one hand out per tournament, doesn't win very many tournaments!

1st of all in most cases, because there are signs of danger from the board...you just cant run from your hand...if, your hand is a good hand...you might tone down your aggressiveness...you might make some test bets...you might think back on all of your opponents plays up to this point...you might rack your brain and notes for past playing habits of the suspect player....but you just can't run and hide. You try to limit your loss if your opponent does have that hand....and if he does then so be it!...just control your loss if your not sure and if it becomes evident that he does have it...theeen muck your hand!

Look at the two cards that it would take to make that hand...now think...would my opponent be playing those two cards...is he on the blind or small blind that would maybe justify them...did he raise or call a raise pre-flop and would that raise or call justify playing those cards...think the situation over logically!

Also the signs of danger for you are signs of opportunity for you opponent...he now can represent his hand as the nut hand!...so be careful and anylize the situation...and stay away from the rocks!...boards don't win hands...players do!

My philosophy is, if you have a made hand play it. Don't be stupid, but don't throw it away just because a scare card comes.

My post recently where I advised the poster to dump his hand was because he was on a draw. Never be on a draw when, even if you make it, you could already be beat. Don't confuse folding a made hand with folding a draw. A draw is nothing but a potential hand, right now you have nothing. If that handfull of potential, might not be good even if you make it, then dump it. Wait until you have a made hand put your enemies in that spot.

--Bonkey

I like this thread crapshoot. I think your right, to many people play scared. The only time I start to get scared from the board is if there are 4 to a flush or straight. Its much more likely your opponent has the one card he/she needs. Otherwise, I try and determine which cards he would be playing , is he just trying to represent the big hand or does he really have it.

Remember, Scared money never wins.

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"I started with nothing. I still have most of it left."

"I find your lack of faith disturbing"

http://live.xbox.com/member/JediSlayer76

theprofessor@texasholdemforums.com

Where is all this so called " hiding under a rock advice" you talk about? I dont see it that much, if anything I see the opposite. I see people saying basically when in doubt, bet. You started out talking about a scarry board ( which is one thing) and then it gradually turns into any board basically when you start talking about gapped cards and bottom pair and such.....I dont know if I disagree with this post or not because I am not entirely sure what you are trying to say....I know this, at the limits most of us play at, straight forward play is BY FAR the optimal strategy. I think I get what you are trying to say, scared money is dead money and I agree 100% if that is it. But I disagree with the inference that playing scared is common advice. Its not. Aggression is the name of the game and that is the overwhelming theme on a majority of message boards, both at THF and others as well. Guideline are called guidelines for a reason, they are just a guide but you must customize that to your style of play. You basically said that people say when you finally get a hand, you fold it if there is a scary board. Where is that advice? I have never seen it.

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Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.

Nicely put there Professor, i agree with you 100%, but also remember that STUPID money never wins either.

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jrs0507

By uniting we stand, By dividing we fall

Huh... When i read the title of the post I immediatly thought "Always!" but as I read through your examples, I realized again that I too often overvalue my opponents cards and fold, just in the cause of making that 'great laydown.' I was watching a poker tournament on TV a while back, and the commentator made the comment

"Sure we can see with the card-cams that (player one) will have a great advantage if he calls (player two)'s all in bet, but when all you can see is the back of the cards they always look like Ace-King to you."

It's really tough not to play-to-lose in poker, always convincing yourself to keep your money and not risk it. "You can't lose what you don't put in the middle, but you won't win much either" I personally have no problem folding my draws if they aren't the nut or close-to nut draws, but probably too often fold the winning hand (usually early in the hand). For example, I'll flop top two pair on a five-way flop with three clubs on the board, and end up folding to some heaving betting. The main predicament I find myself in, is "If I don't improve to a full house on the turn (unlikely with only 4 outs) and face more betting will I be able to call?" Usually the answer is no, so I fold before I get pot commited. This practice doesn't tend to cost me much money, but I suppose in the long run it might if I'm always folding the winning hand.

Any suggetions how to play such an example?

I will give you an example of how someone might use the board to win with a losing hand Moleman.

I was just in a tournament and the blinds were at 20 I limped in with A4o...bad hand, but I just wanted to see the flop...the Button made it 125...I put him on Ax, with x being high, but called anyway...flop was Q, 2, 8 rainbow...I checked, button bet 200...I felt strong that he had Ax higher than mine and should have folded, but called...turn was another Q, I checked and button bet 200 again...this time I called the 200 and re-raised 450 back at him and he folded.

That is an example that is hard to protect if you were him...why would it not look like I had a Q...I called a fair bet pre-flop - meaning high cards...I call his high bet, with a Q showing flop...then I check raised turn when another Q shows up.... the real tough part of this is that you better be sure that you are not doing it to someone that really has the Q!

But there I took a loser hand and turned it into a winner because of a dangerous board!

Now you will probably say "What were you doing in that hand, you should have been out pre-flop, then again flop" and that is true...the reason I played that hand was the player, I felt that I was going to try and buy the pot from him after seeing him play in previous games and after he raised pre-flop....I just felt that I could take the pot away from him....that is an example of playing your opponent and not your cards.

An example of falling prey to a dangerous board is as follows:

You have a high pair good kicker and you have been betting it strong...the board goes to three suited or a pair and now you check - WHAT....what you are saying is "I don't have it...and if you bet strong...I will fold"...you have just sent up a big white surrender flag...that is definetly not a way that you want to handle a dangerous board....that is instead, looking for the rocks!

I like that crapshoot, and have done that many times on the table. Being a fairly loose-aggressive player when I first sit down (online) I have taken many pots off tight players by betting big on the turn/river when it comes 3rd suit, even if I don't hold any in my hand.

I agree, and I often find myself in this position. I know for a FACT that I'm not playing these scenarios correctly, how would you play it? Overbet the pot, representing you DO have it? Make small bet consistent with your play earlier in the hand? What about when the board comes 4-suit and you hold two-pair or a set?

It is really going to depend on your table.
If you just bet the same amount - I feel what you are saying is that I don't have it, but my hand is still good...If you raise, it might look like you are taking advantage of the board, unless it appeared that you were betting in hopes of the 3 suited....but your previous bets have to look that way. Preferably calling, not betting...calling looks more like you were waiting for the 3 suited board.

If you were betting, the strongest, is to check, let someone else try to take advantage of it and then come back with a very strong check raise...but you have to be sure that he doesn't have it. That might be the most costly play, but it is also the most convincing play. That play does make it look like you were betting in hopes of a 3 suited board and now want to get the maximum out of it. If its not on the river - you will want a high suited card so that you have an out in case he calls your check raise...and then hope to draw a 4th suited on the river.