Going Against The Grain

It is my feeling that a lot of today's strategies are carried on from the early writings of Sklansky, Malmuth, Brunson and the like without challenge...I had started a big argument with Daniel Negreanu and everyone at Poker School when I started a thread that consumed many many pages of post all 100% against me.

My statement was, that I felt that the blinds, especially the big blind was given much less value than it deserves in nl holdem...It is looked at like being under the gun...and yes, it is true that you are under the gun after the flop, but still a greater value has to be placed on this position.

We basically base wheter we are going to get in a hand on judging the strength of our two pocket cards...yet we know, that this is just a starting hand and your good hand can turn into a junk hand as soon as the flop is dealt.

When the flop is dealt, you have over 71% of your total hand...this gives you a much better idea whether you have a true starting hand or not...so therefore it is of great importance to see 71% of your hand than it is 28.6% (your pocket cards) of your hand.

Since the big blind is the last to act before the flop...the BB knows exactly what the bet is to see the flop...now depending on what the bet is, a decision can be made if you want to pay that amount to see 71% of your hand.

It always keeped coming back at me that, yes, but after the flop, your under the gun and you are one of the first to devolgue whether you have a hand or not, so this is a very weak position...my argument always was that that was not true...if I hit my hand and am the first to bet, I can always check, someone will bet and then I have seen the strength around the table as much as the button has and more, because I even see the buttons play when it comes back to me for a call...at that time I can decide to fold, call or raise....and based on that, I have a greater advantage than the button. Now the only time that this is going to hurt me...is when I hit my hand and check...and everyone else checks. But it is seldom that everyone checks around in nl holdem. By playing this way I also have the strength of the check raise. So the strength that the position has pre-flop can still have a lot of strength post-flop, if played right.

The position that I like the least is mid position...because if there is a bet, I have to make a decision and if I call a large bet or raise, I might be in store for a large raise or a large re-raise....I have seen basically half of the players positions that they take on the hand, but have another half yet to act, but my play has to be now...that I don't like.

What do the THF members think?

___________________________________
Some learn by reading…..Some learn by observation…….while others have too pee on the electric fence for themselves

I hate to say it but I am going to have to disagree, but I follow your line of thinking......First there is the issue of free cards. It is very hard to get a free card acting in first postion. This cannot be underestimated, especially with drawing hands. Secondly, what if you bet and got re-raised a large amount. Unless you had a monster, you would have to lay it down and waste the money you bet and dont even get to see a card. Acting first takes alot of weapons away from you. For example it is much more dangerous to semi-bluff when you are acting first cause you dont want to semi-bluff if you think you are going to get re-raised.....So, basically, the only time the blind would have an advantage post flop would be in the situation you described, where you hit your monster hand and can afford to check-raise....that situation does not make you enough money in the long run to offset all those bets you lost to re-raises. But, yes I understand your point about wanting to see the flop but I am saying that there are better, more profitable places to see the flop.

__________________
Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.

although bb is not the best position i agree to a certain point if you can see the flop for a reasonable price its not all that bad and i am the same way after flop i will check 90 percent of the time in that position if i hit i can reraise if i didnt i can fold position is important but so are playing the cards and your opponent and by playing a check raise in bb most people are afraid you have the monster being out of position its a great place to buy a pot on the flop

Franky, as far as the free card...the only way you get a free card is if everyone checks...if I am the first to check, and everyone else checks...I still get my free card.

On your second disagreement...I am in no worse position than the Button in that case...if he bets and gets raised a large amount...it is in no way different than if I raise and get raised a large amount

As far as my semi-bluff...I would not semi-bluff under the gun...instead I would do it as a check raise semi-bluff...which is much stronger and done after I have seen everyone elses play.

There is only one point there that I think you were trying to make on the large re-raise...I think what you really mean is if I need to protect my hand, because I want to see another card and if I check...this agressive bettor a couple to my left is going to make a strong bet...however in that case, I might have to make a small bet to let him think that I have something....but, I still do not have any more disadvantage in that case than if I were the button.

___________________________________
Some learn by reading…..Some learn by observation…….while others have too pee on the electric fence for themselves

I understand what youre saying.But overall ,as long as I like my hand my position will mean less.Its hard to come out showing weakness than have it check around to have someone improve their hand and give them that hand they would have folded.But on occasions it works well,for instance on that flopped straight with your 24 and the flop comes 35 and the ace high kickers come in betting heavy.

Yes xtra, but checking around in nl holdem is seldom and when that happens and the opponent makes his hand because of a free card, then I'm in trouble...however I feel that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages by far.

I think you are right in what you are arguing for, but I can see both sides as valid points. I think both the BB/SB and button are decent positions. Just mix your play up some. You can get a feel for what spots you like.

__________________
cky12 - PokerStars
cky12 - FullTilt

My Poker Journal

The problem is that when I play, and I have any hand worth playing, I will likely raise preflop just so that the BB can be forced out. Last night in my home game my buddy limped in with QQ, and I was on the BB and got to see a free flop with 9 2 offsuit -- flop came 229. I took him for almost all he was worth because he didn't play it well. I'll raise all the way down to 44 or maybe even a small suited connector. At this point you'll have to hope to call a raise and hit your flop. I absolutely hate to let the BB see a free flop.

At this point, assuming you hit your hand, you can fail to make money because if you decide to slow play you may never see any action. You said that rarely people check around, but if a hand has only 3 or 4 players involved it could very well get checked around to you. If, however, I was the button or acted in a later position I would be able to make a stab at it and hope to take it down -- place a feeler bet and see if anyone has anything.

I like the BB because it is a good position from which to steal those limpers' calls. Sometimes you'll catch a couple guys who OBVIOUSLY have an okay (but not very good) hand limping in just to see a flop, and that SB will call for only half the price. I like to take this opportunity to steal their antes.

I can see what you mean, though. I think it is a decent position IF you've hit your hand. As far as being able to steal a pot with a post-flop bet you're in terrible position. Fundamentally, the best seat to sit in is the one that acts last. You get to see what everyone is doing, read them all as they bet, you have a great idea of how much is in the pot so you can calculate your odds more accurately, and it's a great place to steal.

jogolfshorts...on your 1st point, I am like you, if I have a hand to play, I am not limping...I want the blinds out also along with any junk hands that want to give it a try by limping.

on your second point, I also agree with you.

on your third poin though...I am the last to act, since I checked and it now comes back to me for a call....I can raise then...it is no different than if a bet was placed before the button and the button raises to steal...I can check raise to steal...I can even check and re-raise the button to steal his attempted steal.

___________________________________
Some learn by reading…..Some learn by observation…….while others have too pee on the electric fence for themselves