Position/Pot Odds-Vital for winning play

Believe it or not, I'm actually going to post poker theories that aren't verbatim from Super System. These are a couple of principles that I've found to be both extremely useful AND extremely neccessary (at least in my playing style, they are)....>POT ODDS-I will try to make this concept as easy to follow as possible. When I first read about this concept/formula, it took a few times for me to actually absorb the meaning, so I'll try to make it easy. Pot odds are in a player's favor when the odds of drawing to a winning hand are greater (more advantageous) than the ratio of money 'to call' is to the existing amount of the pot. Example-If you are drawing to a flush with two suited hole cards and two more of that suit on the flop, then your odds are 'about' 4 to 1 of making your flush. Now, if there is active betting going on and you don't know whether it's worth it to call, you would look at the amount that is already in the pot and compare it with what it costs to call the bet that is coming to you. If blinds are $50/$100 and there are 4 people in the hand (yourself included), and after said flop a bet comes to you of $300, you would look at the total amount of the pot. In this case, with a little pre flop betting going on, let's say that there's $800 in the pot. And the first person to act bets out the aforementioned $300, next person folds, next person calls the $300, and now it's on you....well, that makes a total of $1400 in the pot. What you want to figure, at this point, is that 'if' you call the $300, your 'pot odds' will be almost 6 to 1 -(1400+300=1700....300x6=1800...the pot holds 1700)), and the odds of making your flush are 'about' 4 to 1, so in this case you would be making a theoretically correct call, because odds say you will hit your flush more often than 1 out of 6 times, which is about the ratio of money in the pot after you call.. Pot odds say that if you made this call 6 times, in this exact situation, you would make your hand between 1 and 2 times out of every 6 times you called. Therefore giving you a 'reason' to call. Keep in mind, there is gamble to this play, but a 'calculated' gamble (if you believe in such a thing). There are definitely other variables that contribute to making these 'pot odds'-type decisions. And one of, if not THE most important is....>POSITION-So important to winning play (and so often ignored by the novice player) is position. Position is dictated by how many seats are between a player and the button. As the button is always last to act (after the flop), he has the best position...LAST position. A HUGE part of poker is the gathering/utilizing (sometimes exploiting) of information. What better scenario could one have to gather information rather than acting AFTER one has seen what everyone else has done. Position can make decisions MUCH easier (that A4 offsuit is a lot easier to throw away after you've seen a raise or 2 in front of you, and a lot easier to raise WITH after you've seen most people drop out or limp into a pot in front of you).The seat directly to the left of the dealer in Hold Em and Omaha (dealer position doesn't exist in Stud) is the '1' spot. In a 9-handed game, the button (when the table is full) is the '9' spot'. The theory of position dictates that the lower number spots act more cautiously (and rightfully so) than the higher number spots. Early position bluffs are not advised, at least not unjustified bluffs (leaning on short stacks, acting on a read of a tight table, etc.) And late position bluffs are advocated. The strength of the edge that position gives those who know how to use it is tremendous. Poker is a situational game. Many, many variables come into play EVERY hand. The more aware you are of these variables and how to apply them to specific situations, the more succesful your game will be. Aggressive play is winning play, but ONLY when the aggressor knows what he/she is doing. Otherwise it's just reckless, and losing play (in the long run). These 2 theories are not even CLOSE to 'all there is to know'. But they are 2 VERY important concepts to know and understand if you want to improve your play. And once you've got these 2 down. POSITION and POT ODDS used together make an even more (combined) formidable weapon to add to your arsenal.In closing, to apply these principles, you must also apply a few others. >Know your outs at ALL times. > Know what hands you can/can't and will/won't be ABLE TO beat. >Put your opponent on a hand (you'll be amazed how you'll get better at this over time). >Know how to change gears. I'm sure I'll post on these concepts at another time.-----------I hope that this helped some of you guys/ladies, and that you find it useful.

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!!!!!VICTORY IS MINE!!!!!

awsome.....AWSOME....i didnt understand at first but now i gotter for sure.....i have always wanted to know what pot odds are....having hear the term many times.......and now i know thank you

and couldnt agree more about position being key

now i just gotta hone up the old math skills and ill be in buisnees thanks

GREAT POST

good post....... (I admit that I only skimmed it because I already have a handle on pot odds).....the only thing I would add is that you dont need to follow pot odds so closely in tournament play because of the finite amount of chips you have... "playing the player" becomes more important in tournament play. In A tournament, you may have to correct pot odds to call, but do you really want to risk your life on a slight advantage in pots odds? One subject that is a little harder to grasp is 'implied' odds and 'equity'. maybe if I get the time I will write a little sumpin sumpin on that.....but overall I think this post is very good and easy to understand for those who dont have a firm grasp on pot odds.

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Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.

Good post, Matro. I already had a very rough grasp of the pot odds idea, but you fleshed it out a bit for me. More important was your emphasis on playing position. When I went to foldorraise.com, the idea of playing position was drilled into my skull. Looking back on all the games I've played, I can see how many times the person on the button or near it has put in a decent sized bet after checks around the table and taken the pot. This sort of intellegent agressive play has helped me dominate the sit n go's I play in.

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Archonwarp: "I'm not a compulsive gambler; I'm just a gambling enthusiast!"

PokerStars name: Thermoplyae

Great post. I think pot odds are very important when you are drawing. I have been using pot odds with my calls, but I know that a lot of players dont. I think its important for them to know the pot odds while playing in hands. Again, great post for all those who dont know about pot odds.

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cky12 - PokerStars
cky12 - FullTilt

My Poker Journal

I hate to be the bearer of bad news here but the example you provided is incorrect. There is 1400 in the pot and if you call the 300$ you are actually getting 4.6 to 1. Not 6 to 1. You dont add your call into the pot total. Your call would be the "to 1" part of the 4.6 to 1. see, you are getting 4.6 bets for your 1. Although it would still be correct to call because a flush draw is laying 4.1 to 1 the call is not so clear cut, and if you use that math everytime you are bound to make plenty of incorrect decisions......I did not catch this the first time I read, sorry about that.

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Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.

I just want to flesh out some of the things that Frank says re tourney play. Whilst I agree that chip stack means you cannot just look at pot odds it doesnt mean you should not look at them. Rather you should look at EV (expected value) - what are your chances if you dont take the bet, what are your chances if you do - pot odds are a fundimental part of that. Many of the other factors are harder to put exact percentages on but whilst that means not knowing odds to the percentile is less important you still should know (or calculate) them say to the nearest 5%

You have to take on board all sort of stuff regarding expected tourney result, stage in tourney - quality of those players you have met and expected quality of other players in tourney. Pot odds are still key but they are key to a more complex equation.

It is useful to have an idea what sort of odds at different stages of a tourney you will take to double through. Some players would be wise to take 40% others would be foolish to even consider 65%ers.

One thing i will say is that many quality players sherk from 1/3s in tourneys where pot odds are paying out pretty high (4-6 times remaining chips) but are happy to enter coin tosses with very little in the centre to improve pot odds. After two coin tosses chances of survival are 1/4...... you can work the rest out for yourself.

It is very hard to assess the EV of folding. This is also something that isnt considered in posts. It is clear if you are at final table, have KK and 1000 chips and there are 4 of you left if someone goes all in (8000 and gets called by the other 2 (8000) and (2000) that there are lots of payment structures that would make folding this correct - even if you held AA instead of KK! It is true that many players take an instinctive approach and with experience this can serve them well but surely they are only relying on instincts because they have nothing better at their disposal! But what about turning down a coin toss ( you know they have a low pair and you have AK?) in similar circumstances with one of the 8000 stacks. You have to put a figure on the worth of your chances of doubling through (and likelihood of finishing in the money and if so how much if you do and win/ and what are your chances of finishing in the money if you fold.

It would be interesting to see what value players put on certain circumstances so we can pool our knowledge bases. It is true everyone will be slightly different in the end. If you are very good at heads up a 50/50 all in between you and someone else would be foolish if there were three of you left - most of the time anyway... And this knowledge shouldnt just affect your decision on particular hands but your whole style of play.

How much, for instance, would you value the following in cash terms:

1)6 left all 5000 chips exactly top 5 pay out as follows $45, 37.5, 30, 22.5, 15 blinds 150/300 increasing every 10min solid reads on two players both solid, slightly aggressive and quite good- others seem tight/passive

2) 10 players left same sit as above only blinds 75/150 and other players you know nothing about

3) 60 players left all win 5000 top 50 in money ($2500 pot) with typical split amongst 50 (i.e. top 3-4 getting most of it)

Myself I would value scenario 1 as c. $25 or possibly even more depending on how i was playing and 2) at c.10$-15$

Three I am unsure of but would depend a lot on reads at table and confidence in my play at that poing in time - pr 80$ at least but I would never gamble for that as a stake

Franky, the $300 call WOULD in fact make the pot a total of $1700, giving the caller just under a 6 to 1 price. The call adds to the pot. If/when you win the pot, the call would be included in it. That's what gives the price on the pot. e.g. $1700 to $300= 5.68 to 1. This is a fact. Not an opinion.

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!!!!!VICTORY IS MINE!!!!!

here is an excerpt directly from Sklanskys Hold Em Poker........


"lets say your hand can catch five different cards to make the "nuts". With 2 cards to come it is about a 4 to 1 underdog. If there is 40$ in the pot, a player bets $10 and everyone else folds, it seems that you are getting 5 to 1 odds and thus should call. However, this is incorrect.The right way to determine odds you are really getting is as follows: If you do not make your hand you will lose $30. $10 on the flop and $20 dollars on fourth st. If you do make your hand, you will win the $40 in the pot plus his $10 bet plus 20$ on 4th st and another 20$ on 5th st.- $90 all together. Thus you are really getting only 3 to 1. you should fold. The main thing to understand here is that your pot odds on the flop are not nearly as good as they appear if you intend to call on 4th street also"

Now, the section in red is what you need to pay attention to. The section in orange is assuming you are going to call on 4th. But it is clear that he is not adding the call into the pot when he is calculation the pot odds of this bet only. Again the section in orange is assuming you play the hand through and there are additional bets that you must call. in the calculation you and I disagree about is assuming that there are no more bets to be called. This on page 63 in the Odds and Implied Odds section. Look it up. This is a written by one of the most respected poker authors and players in the world.

EDIT:

her is a definition I found on the web.

3.4.1 Pot Odds
Also called immediate odds, pot odds are the ratio of money in the pot against the cost to call. For example, if there are $12 in the pot and it costs $4 to call then you are getting 3-to-1 odds ( winnings-to- ``cost to stay in").

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Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.