Shorthanded Chip Dumping

I'd like to know what everyone here thinks of shorthanded chip dumping. By this, I do not mean any form of 2 player collusion, but rather, 1 player collusion that involves two players. Allow me to explain with an example:

Standard 9-man SnG, down to the final 3. You have 7000 chips, player Tony has 4500 chips, and shortstack Seth has 2000 chips. Blinds are 100-200. You are in a fairly good position to make it to heads up, but there is only one problem, you are in a rock-paper-scissors type of situation. You know Tony can easily outplay you, and as long as he has a modest amount of chips (say, 3000 or more), he will be able to beat you heads up, 90% of the time. Meanwhile, you know you can outplay Seth (much like Tony can outplay you), but for some reason Tony can't. Obviously, it's preferable for Seth to hit a good run of cards while Tony hits a bad run, so you can take on Seth instead of Tony heads up (should you make it that far).

So, to the game. Seth pushes his 2000 chips from the button, and Tony folds his small blind. You look down from the big blind to see J5o. You are confident you are beat by a strong holding, and you are getting only 1.15:1 to call. But, would it be profitable to call anyway?? If you call and win (assuming Seth has a top 15% hand, this will be 28.3% of the time), you now hold just over a 2:1 chip lead on Tony, and you're certainly going to need every chip you can get. Meanwhile, should you lose, you still have 25 blinds left, and Seth has plenty of chips he can use to help get rid of Tony (which is obviously favorable to you).

Were all three players equal in skill, you would obviously fold, but that isn't the case. Who here calls, and who folds? Those who fold, please counter my argument.

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1st place, March/April 2008 Sunday League

Intelligence, lack thereof: Causing insanity to those with.

I understand your question mars but it's hard to comprehend that you can out play Seth and not Tony when Seth can out play Tony.

Regardless, given the scenerio I still think your best chance against Tony is your chip lead so don't give it up. If Seth can chip away at Tony let him. You dump your chips you suddenly make it an even table and any random suck out can happen. Keep your chips.

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I would think the pace is too fast and each decision is more based on your cards at this point in the game to really consider too much else of greater sophistaction.

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3rd Pitbull league June 2007
2nd Pitbull league July 2007

But that's the thing...shorthanded is when it's the LEAST about the cards!

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1st place, March/April 2008 Sunday League

Intelligence, lack thereof: Causing insanity to those with.

While I understand this, if I was going to make the call on Seth's move, I might wait one more hand.

My reasoning is the cards. Even though it's least about the cards at this point, it's still part of the game. You almost have to get some better than J-5os next hand when he makes the same play. You have to say that he has at least Ace-rag with that move.

Hopefully you get some suited or connecting cards. Something to up your chances a little. You don't want him to get lucky and then have a three way battle where all three of you a close to the same chip stack. You need to keep as much of an advantage as you can just in case it comes down to you and Tony.

So you lose your BB and maybe even you SB next hand, but you haven't put yourself in a bad spot by calling that hand.

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Sunday League Team Champions _ April-June 2006 _ Poker4Ever
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JeremyLW - Ant013 - NoBigKicker
Sunday League Champion _ April-June 2006 _ Poker4Ever


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There are some people who for whatever reason try to make the game way more complex than it has to be.

Calling with trash with stacks of this size would be a rather stupid thing to do... that's pretty obvious.

LOL Phil Ivey couldn't beat me 90% of the time when I hold a 10K to 3K chip lead!!! Here's a tip for ya... if you are positive that a player you find yourself HU against is THAT MUCH BETTER THAN YOU you can completely take away his advantage by playing all in or fold poker.

Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead.

Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Man in Black: You've made your decision then?

Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

Vizzini: Wait til I get going! Now, where was I?

Man in Black: Australia.

Vizzini: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Man in Black: You're just stalling now.

Vizzini: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Man in Black: You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.

Vizzini: IT HAS WORKED! YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHERE THE POISON IS!

Man in Black: Then make your choice.

Vizzini: I will, and I choose - What in the world can that be?

Vizzini: [Vizzini gestures up and away from the table. Roberts looks. Vizzini
swaps the goblets]

Man in Black: What? Where? I don't see anything.

Vizzini: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter.First, let's drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.

Man in Black, Vizzini: [they drink ]

Man in Black: You guessed wrong.

Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...

Vizzini: [Vizzini stops suddenly, and falls dead to the right]

Buttercup: And to think, all that time it was your cup that was poisoned.

Man in Black: They were both poisoned. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.

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I understand your view K06mars. But I fold because of weak hole cards. I fear no one. Sure I go through streaks but the odds will always staighten out in the long run. If you got enough chips you can wait for the nuts and trap when the time comes.

The shorter stack has to gamble or act aggresive so let them play panic poker. A level head makes better decisions. Your questions states that you have doubts about playing a player over an other. I do not play that way.

The cards have no memory so I play every playable hand against any one. I hate playing scared!

Yes I have seen one person win against me allot but I have had that one person resently say "you have won the last seven times, I don't want to play you anymore."

An ocean tide changes so does a person's winning streaks. You got give the tide a chance to change. The person has to make the wise choices and not fear them. Unlike the persona given in this question. You are playing a mind game on yourself in my eyes and weakening yourself by doing so.

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