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Go Back   Poker Forums > Texas Hold Em Rooms > Advice & Strategy > Theory, Advice, Strategies

WAS DOYLE WRONG?!? or is this the dumbest post ever?

Theory, Advice, Strategies

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Old 08-21-2006, 12:06 AM
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Yo russff. In this case, there are only 2 people playing, no more no less. Naturally, the strength of any pocket pair depends on how many people are calling/raising. KK pre-flop against one caller is much stronger than AA pre-flop against 8 callers. 22 is a terribly weak pocket pair but if that third 2 hits the flop, you're now sitting at the table atop an invisible nuclear weapon.
I guess in a nutshell, you should never assume that any 2 cards are "good" or "bad". Certainly some look better initially but it all comes down to how they fit the flop and how they are played against.
Btw, I don't necessarily think you meant it so literally but I would avoid saying (and definately thinking) that anything 'never happens" or 'happens all the time' unless I'm using that to falsely advertise myself as being a weak player. One of my favorite poker sayings is that over the course of a lifetime, we all get the same cards. There's only 52 you know

Last edited by Zac Ray; 08-21-2006 at 12:25 AM. Reason: 13 ain't unlucky
  
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumbar View Post
At that point in the book he is referring to AK generically. He discusses the differences between AKs and AKo later in the chapter. I'm quite certain that in his wager with his buddies he was up against a non-suited AK. In fact, knowing Doyle's reputation I'm quite certain he had dueces that didn't match the suits of the ace and king. So I'm guessing he probably had something like 2s2h against Adkc. This gives him a slightly better chance against the overcards because that gives him two shots at a four flush that would be the best hand.
Cha-ching, he's got it.
  
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Old 08-24-2006, 08:18 PM
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heads up, real cards, the pocket dueces are the fav.
  
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Old 08-30-2006, 12:08 AM
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Question maybe...

Notice that in his passage Doyle does not emphasize the suits of any of the cards. He does point out that the bet is even money (and regardless of the suits, I'd say the computed odds are close enough to be called 'even' in the context he meant it in.) Then he goes onto expound about how his 2s whipped up the AK. His opponents went and double-checked the odds and came back to receive more of a beating.
So what was his point here? It really would appear to be that even though the 2s are the lowest (weakest) possible pocket pair, in this specific setup they gain their advantage because they are a "made hand" being played against a drawing hand. Yeah, the AK have a lot of outs but they must improve to win.
Now the real poker student in me says "ok but if the odds are pretty much 50/50, the twos should not really have much significant advantage even though they are a made hand." Odds are odds right? This naturally makes me consider the algorithims being used by (was it Fonz's?) calculator. If they are correct, then why does Doyle seem to be saying that the 2s won so decidedly?
Hmmmmmmmm. I'm probably gonna get slammed here... this really started out as a joke. Oh well, I'm all-in in the dark !! lol

Last edited by Zac Ray; 09-01-2006 at 06:34 AM.
  
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Old 10-10-2006, 08:21 PM
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I have to agree with Doyle, pocket 2's have won a lot of pots for me, I like to say 2's and q's like me Pocket A's on the other hand at least for me are the worst possible hand I can get. I can't count on all the digits I have how many times I have been beat with pocket A's.
  
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Old 10-29-2006, 07:03 AM
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Well, that proves another of Doyles' points. Realistically AA is an awesome starting hand yet so many people complain about it "always getting beat." The reality is that with pocket 2s, someone is 1) less likely to commit much money or 2) less likely try chase with so you typically lose less with them. With the pocket aces, you tend to either win very little, win a lot, or lose a lot. Memory is definately going to go back to 2 of those outcomes as they will be pretty frequent, especially in online play. They might be a great pair but alone, they are still only 1 pair.
  
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Old 10-29-2006, 08:09 PM
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If on-line players didn't have this mindless big hand all-in preflop attitude they wouldn't have the huge losses refered to in the previous post. If you want to commit to throwing away any control of the outcome by doing that then you have only yourself to blame for your own lack of understanding and imagination when it goes pear shaped. See thread on handling AA for full reasons.
  
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Old 10-29-2006, 10:03 PM
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Is the odds different if AK suited vs. os?
  
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Old 10-29-2006, 10:27 PM
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Of course they are, suited gives you a 3% better chance of winning (roughly) with any given hand versus if they were offsuit. 3% - not much, but if you think you're in a coinflip situation, it may be the difference between call and fold.
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