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Go Back   Poker Forums > Texas Hold Em Rooms > Advice & Strategy > Theory, Advice, Strategies

Pots won at Showdown %

Theory, Advice, Strategies

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Old 07-20-2006, 10:09 PM
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I'd like to see my numbers over 60%, I think that's pretty good. But there are a lot of factors to take into consideration. Personally I think the number that has the most bearing on my making or losing money is the voluntarily put money in the pot and my aggression factor. These are the numbers I pay the most attention to. If my VP$IP is low then when I enter a pot I generally have the best hand. When I start out with the best hand then when I take it all the way to the river I've either generally still got the best hand or I'm in the pot with someone who played an oddball hand that I couldn't put him on and he outdrew me. So when my VP$IP is low, my W$SD percent is high. When my aggression factor, which is a measure of how often you raise versus how often you check or call, is high then I'm generally chasing more drawing hands out of a hand earlier and am getting sucked out on less often, so my W$SD percent is again high.

There are a lot of filters that you can apply to your data in PokerTracker. For example my W$SD percent with pocket aces in tournaments is 76.37% and my W$SD percent with 72o in tournaments is 43.75%. But there isn't a filter to see stats for tournaments you've won versus tournaments you've lost that I know of. I can look at stats for any particular tournament or any particular hand so you could work out the math, but with about 1300 tournaments that I have in PokerTracker it would be a bit tedious to figure it out.
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:09 PM
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Heres my stats Bsquad, Ive only just seen this thread so havent been ignoring you!
This is my UB database as its my main site now. ONly been playing on there for a month so the sample size is small.

Hands = 6300
Won$WSF = 29.22%
Went to SD = 21.06%
Won at SD = 59.11%

Hope this helps, these are ring game stats only..
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadmunkey
Heres my stats Bsquad, Ive only just seen this thread so havent been ignoring you!
This is my UB database as its my main site now. ONly been playing on there for a month so the sample size is small.

Hands = 6300
Won$WSF = 29.22%
Went to SD = 21.06%
Won at SD = 59.11%

Hope this helps, these are ring game stats only..
Thanks cadmunkey I see you are right around 60%. Is it safe to say that in the month you've been playing at UB your bankroll has increased? If so by what %. You dont have to give $$$ amounts just %. I'm just curious.......
  
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumbar
I'd like to see my numbers over 60%, I think that's pretty good. But there are a lot of factors to take into consideration. Personally I think the number that has the most bearing on my making or losing money is the voluntarily put money in the pot and my aggression factor. These are the numbers I pay the most attention to. If my VP$IP is low then when I enter a pot I generally have the best hand. When I start out with the best hand then when I take it all the way to the river I've either generally still got the best hand or I'm in the pot with someone who played an oddball hand that I couldn't put him on and he outdrew me. So when my VP$IP is low, my W$SD percent is high. When my aggression factor, which is a measure of how often you raise versus how often you check or call, is high then I'm generally chasing more drawing hands out of a hand earlier and am getting sucked out on less often, so my W$SD percent is again high.

There are a lot of filters that you can apply to your data in PokerTracker. For example my W$SD percent with pocket aces in tournaments is 76.37% and my W$SD percent with 72o in tournaments is 43.75%. But there isn't a filter to see stats for tournaments you've won versus tournaments you've lost that I know of. I can look at stats for any particular tournament or any particular hand so you could work out the math, but with about 1300 tournaments that I have in PokerTracker it would be a bit tedious to figure it out.
Thanks Grum. I guess i should just break down and get the software already. I'd love to know what my VP$IP and my aggression factors are as well. The one constant I seem to find in the stats i keep by hand is my W$SD. If its above 50% I do well, if its below then i dont. Most of the times its below 50% it usually means I had a better hand and got sucked out on. Above 50% and it usually means my hands are holding up. All the other stats can vary. Sometimes I can see 10% of the flops and win and sometimes i can see 30% with the same outcome. Same goes for Pots won without showdown. Some games I can win as little as 5% and some games its 20%. Neither will give me any other indication other than my opponents were tighter than usual.

I need stats that will help me improve. It looks like VP$IP and aggression factor are the stats i should be concentrating on. Thanks for the tip. And when i do get this software I'll have a million questions. Don't worry I'll work through it myself but if I get stumped I'm gonna pick your brain.
  
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:49 PM
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One last thing...... cadmunkey's "went to SD" % was 21.06%. Is that just hands in which you seen flop or a % of all hands? Seems high to me. Where should a number like that be?
  
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Old 07-20-2006, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BSQUAD
One last thing...... cadmunkey's "went to SD" % was 21.06%. Is that just hands in which you seen flop or a % of all hands? Seems high to me. Where should a number like that be?
B, thats the percentage of hands I went to showdown on once I saw a flop. NOT a % of all hands.
In answer to your other query, my bankroll has increased just under 300% since I joined UB. I thought my win at showdown figure was a bit low, but apparently its about right. Higher figures mean you are not seeing enough flops.
Bsquad, if you havent yet invested in Poker Tracker then do so as soon as you feel you can justify the expense. It has definately helped me improve my online game.
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Old 07-20-2006, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
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B, thats the percentage of hands I went to showdown on once I saw a flop. NOT a % of all hands.
In answer to your other query, my bankroll has increased just under 300% since I joined UB. I thought my win at showdown figure was a bit low, but apparently its about right. Higher figures mean you are not seeing enough flops.
Bsquad, if you havent yet invested in Poker Tracker then do so as soon as you feel you can justify the expense. It has definately helped me improve my online game.

Thanks cad I think I'm gonna do just that. I wasnt looking forward to learning new software as I'm old and easily confused... .. I heard the software takes a bit to get to learn it. But it seems to be just what I'm looking for.
  
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Old 07-20-2006, 11:12 PM
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I remember reading an article on poker tracker in the past about ideal stats, and apparently you need to try and get close to these figures:

VP$IP of less then 20%,
a W$WSF of greater then 35%,
a W$ASD of greater then 50%
and an aggression factor of greater then 3.
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Old 07-20-2006, 11:21 PM
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One thing if you have your hand history turned on at PokerStars, you'll be able to import every hand you've played there once you get PokerTracker. It'll take a little time since it complains a little if you try to import too many files or hands at once, so you'll have to import them in chunks. And once you get the hands in you'll want to import the tournament histories which you'll have to request individually from PokerStars and you can only request 21 an hour. I'd been playing for about 6 months before I finally broke down and got PokerTracker. I ended up sending a request to PokerStars for my entire hand history and then requesting all my tournament histories one by one. It took two weekends or so to get everything uploaded, but I immediately found holes in my game that I was able to start working on as a result. After that it was a pretty simple task to keep it up to date.

It does take a little getting used to. There is SOOOOOOOOO much information that it is all a bit overwhelming at first. There are still stats that I don't even really pay attention to. But if you are focusing on one stat, then you can really see what different effects changing your style of play has on that stat. Like for you, right now your W$SD seems to be your greatest indicator of success. So you can make adjustments to how you play postflop and see how that changes your W$SD and then how that affects your ITM percent. And then you can start to look at another stat like VP$IP and see how that changes when you are winning and losing and what changes to your style does to affect that number. It won't take long until you can look at a single tournament history and see what you needed to improve on to be more successful in that tournament.

If you are just looking that stats tab on the table at PokerStars, then there are a lot of other stats that are affecting your game that you aren't taking into consideration. You can look at where you lost money based on position. Maybe you took your biggest hits in the blinds, could mean you are defending your blinds too often. Maybe you took big hits in early position, could mean you need to tighten up when you are out of position. I don't do it often enough, but when I have a winning or losing ring game or tournament, I like to go look at that session and see where I was weak and where I was strong with regards to stats and see what hands I might have played differently to have a better result.
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Old 07-27-2006, 09:18 PM
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How important is "Pots won at Showdow?"

I just thought I'd throw out this little piece of information. I am currently 1/2 way through a 100 game test (so to speak) that I am conducting on myself and how i play. I don't use pokertracker (but will soon) and I decided that of all the stats I could manually calculate fairly easily, that the one stat the seemed to stand out was "Pots won at Showdown".

If my PWSD or W$SD % was higher than 60% I easily cashed in virtualy every game. However if that same stat was below 45% I rarely ever cashed.

I am currently on a sort of hot streak where i cashed in 12 of my last 16 SNG's. Just for the heck of it I decided to break those games down into 2 categories. (#1) stats for games I cashed (#2) stats for games I didnt.

Now as I said I dont use pokertracker so the stats i keep are pretty basic. (ie: # of hands played, % seen the flop, W$w/oSD, W$@SD) Just the basics.

Heres what i calculated in the 16 games:




Of the 12 games I cashed my stats are as follows:

% of hands played=26%
% of won $ without showdown= 16%
% of won $ @ showdown=61%



Of the 4 games I failed to cash my stats are as follows:

% of hands played=24%
% of won $ without showdown= 11%
% of won $ @ showdown=25%



Conclusion:

The # of hands played (26% vs. 24%) is virtually a wash. I was seeing the same amount of flops in the games I won vs. the games I lost.

The # of pots won without showdown (16% vs. 11%). Now theres a little more difference here. But not major. I contribute this to the fact that by being eliminated early in the games i lost, I failed to reach a shorthanded situation where alot more pots are won uncontested.

The # of pots won @ showdown (61% vs. 25%).. WOW!!! what a major difference here. Nearly a 250% swing. So what does this mean to me? To me it merely means that when my hands hold-up @ showdown 60% of the time or more I'm going to win $$$. When my hands fail to hold-up @ showdown less than 45% of the time I'm going to lose $$$.

So what determines whether or not your hands will hold-up more than 60% of the time or less? The answer seems to be......"Pure Luck". If you get pocket Aces 3 times and go heads up against pocket Kings all 3 times and you win 2 of the 3, then your pots won @ showdown is 66% (Above the 60% mark).
Now if you lose 2 of 3 then your pots won @ showdown is 33%.(below the 45% mark). Theres nothing you can do about it. Its up to the Gods, so to speak.

So if you want to be a more consistent winner you need to keep your W$@SD % above 60%. Like i said earlier, most of it is out of your hands However there are ways you can help keep this stat above 60%.

#1. is to minimize the amount of times you see a showdown. You should be winning most hands preflop, post flop, or on the turn. How to do this is to play aggressive poker. If your seeing too many river cards then you are playing too loose or your not betting enough to knock your opponents off a pot.

#2. Pay close attention to your opponents and take notes. Know who the calling stations are, who's playing tight?, who the aggressive players are?, Will this solid player fold to a reraise? And most importantly know what your own table image is at the table. The solid player may fold TPTK to a reraise from player A because he is playing tight/solid poker but may not fold to you if your image is loose/aggressive. Having notes on your opponents will allow you to determine wether or not its worth going to showdown at certain times.

#3. As Kenny Rogers said ..."Know when to fold em".. A good player can laydown a good hand if the evidence is clear enough that he is beat. Don't have an ego about laying a strong hand down. By being able to laydown a good hand when you think your beat your saving chips and avoiding the showdown.
  
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