you cannot blame your losses on donks

07-16-2006, 04:15 PM

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Scottishben

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phil makes big profits from poker - i am mearly saying that if someone loses money at poker in the long term it is because they are playing poorly and that the play of others (except for it being better than your own) cannot be to blame for your long term profits.

07-16-2006, 05:14 PM

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wickedroller

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I profit from poker as well. If not for the poor play of others, I would profit even more as most of the losses, and especially big losses, I suffer occur when one or more clowns who cant be ran out of a pot chasing 4 and 5 outers makes their card. Correct play does profit in the long term though. The donks you encounter along the way are what makes it such a grind. I agree with you though, long term loss cannot be attributed to the poor play of others. I keep waiting for a site to pop up where, when all the money goes in the pot, the cards are turned up and the best hand wins. I wonder how many people holding J-3 would call your 5X BB preflop bet there.

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07-16-2006, 05:19 PM

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truushot

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When someone pushes preflop with a bad hand because they are short stacked doesn't make the a donkey. While you might think that your making most of your money off of the solid players your mistaken. You think they are solid they probably aren't or your definition of solid is a tad off. You might be referring to tight players with no imagination. For the most part online you can simply play tight straight forward and win. It really is that simple.
Most tight solid players don't care if you are clipping them for a few chips because they are getting it from someone else.
In your first example your call with the AK is a mistake. Why risk half your stack with it. Often you'll see they have a small pair and your a dog.

07-16-2006, 05:32 PM

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DONK-the player who just took your chips

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Last edited by xtra; 07-16-2006 at 05:42 PM.

07-16-2006, 05:35 PM

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wickedroller

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good point tru- small profits and losses come from playing with solid opponents. The real money is made from the true donkeys at the tables. Unfortunately, their poor play is also often the reason for a big loss. So when we take a bad beat, we should be thankful, that the donkeys exist instead of cursing them. You never hear anyone complain about an opponent going all in with Q-J when their AA doubles through on them. Thankfully, solid play overcomes the losses long term. Thank you for the donkeys.

07-16-2006, 06:24 PM

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Donks sucking out on you give you big losses, but you wouldn't get big wins if you played against everyone who plays the right odds. Let's say you have TJo and the flop comes KQ9, two spades. Now you have the absolute nuts at the moment, but that flush draw scares you. Say there is $100 in the pot. You bet $200. This takes the pot to $300. The donk has a couple of spades in his hand and calls. He's getting 2 to 3 on his money, but his flush draw is a 1 in 3 to hit, so he's not getting the right odds. But he calls anyway. He calls your $500 pot sized bet on the turn and misses his flush on the river and folds to a bet or tries to bluff at the pot not realizing you still have the absolute nuts at this point. So you win a huge pot off him. If he does hit the flush then you are going to slow down and lose a big pot. So donks give you bigger swings. They don't only increase your losses, they increase your wins as well.

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07-17-2006, 08:52 PM

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M0NEYMAKER88

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90% of the time I have to blame my losses on donks, more often than not I get knocked out of a tournament by a suck out. Im not so sure how you can say donkeys aren't to blame for all the losses. Then again if you look at how you made money throughout a tournament, it usually is by going up against donkeys. Lets face it, we need donkeys in tournaments, as much as I hate them, they are the people that allow my stack to grow (majority of the time). But then again they are the same people who suck out on you everytime and make poor calls. I am under the belief of if you play good hands you should win. Donkeys believe that any two cards can win at any given time.

Think about it this way if you lose on hands that you should be winning on, than you are a good player. If you make the right plays and get sucked out than just realize someday my good play will pay off.

07-18-2006, 03:20 AM

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wbtczn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by xtra

DONK-the player who just took your chips

First of all -- xtra, you have hit it right on the head!! I can't believe how many times I've been called donk when I've beaten someone. As was noted by pokerref -- just because I played a hand differently than you would doesn't make me a donk. There is a method to the madness.

Secondly, this is an excellent thread. Wish I had read it last week to remind me about plays in my home game. The game is comprised of experienced and inexperienced players. It's a chance for inexperiencd players to learn in a friendly environment.

I was at a table where the two people on either side of me were monsterous calling stations. It was so frustrating. The one on my right raised huge (5x - 6x on a regular basis) whenever he had 2 cards 10 or greater. The one on my left would call to "keep you honest" or "to see another card". In one hand I was in late position. Everyone folded to the person on my right who limped (as usual -- so this doesn't mean anything to me). Kx of hearts (x was ten or jack, I don't remember). Person on my left (button) calls and the person on my right also calls.

Flop is A24. Person on my right checks. I'm concerned that one of them may have an ace, so I bet 1/2 the pot to find out. Person on the left folds. Person on the right thinks awhile. No doubt to me that he doesn't have an ace. He calls.

Turn is something like a 7 or an 8. He again checks. I make a good sized bet (remember, he's a newbie...size of bet in relation to pot doesn't tell him anything). He again calls.

River is a 5. He checks again. He has shown absolutely no aggression, no sense of any hand. I decide to continue the bluff and bet him all in. He stewed for awhile and finally said, "only a fool would call this" and then proceeds to call. He had 5x! Had absolutely no part of the hand until he rivered the pair of fives. What in the world was he thinking? I was so angry.

What's the moral? It was my own fault that my chip stack was decimated. I was trying to bluff (although I was actually in the lead until the river) someone who didn't know he was being bluffed. I could have just as easily checked it down and lost a few chips instead of 95% of my stack.

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07-19-2006, 04:44 PM

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jackdog1963

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Alli touched on a good point. I found playing a more aggressive style (near maniac) tends to put the lesser players on guard while building your chip stack in the early stages.

03-19-2007, 11:27 AM

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MingoJingo

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I used to play many cheap SNG's, $1-2 buy-ins. Results varied but overall I was a little ahead, and cashing here and there at freerolls. I'm not a new player by any means - been playing frequently for over a year, but not exactly rich enough to risk much money. But overall a winning player and slowly building bankroll of sorts.

I stayed away from cash games as that's how I begun playing poker, and as like any new player, pretty much played poorly overall. I stuck with SNG's to keep loses minimal and learn the game.

I was getting a bit frustrated at bad beats at the SNG's. eg. late in the game and pushing with good preflop hands, only to getting called by K or A rag OS to beat me.

I figured I'll have another go at cash a few weeks ago, and I've never looked back. I'm still only testing my skills at the 5-10c tables, but the donkies pay you off more than suck you out. I've been 2-tabling these games and with a bit of discipline and patience it's very easy to get payed off virtually every session. Some times I'll have to sit there for an hour folding most hands and then the monster hand comes and you double up. I'm not talking about KK or AA, rather limping with 99 or below that flops a set; a good draw to a flush with Ax suited or flop a hidden straight when on the BB.

Play them strongly (even overbet) and they call you down and you take their stack. Depending on the opponents in the hand I might even fold top pair if I get resistance.

Over the past few sessions I recognise 5 or 6 regular names doing exactly what I'm doing and they too are all making money more sessions than not. The funny thing is we now stay clear from each other on most hands and rarely showdown a hand.

Based on this experience I'd say that if you are overall a losing player and leaking money to donks then I suggest you aren't playing well enough against these types of players as I'm hardly an expert but other than a couple of badbeats I'm soaking up their cash without too much effort.

This works best at full tables and it can be boring but it's a solid method to profit. Once I've built up a few more bucks I'll move up a level as see how it fares.

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