It's not all about me

Last night I had a random thought. I'm sure it came from a poker book I read. After poking around this forum I realized it seems we tend to become a little too obsessed about our own hands, our odds, our stack, and how we are doing right now. However, there is one thing we sometimes miss.

The opponent.

We all think about what they might have--you have to. But how often do you really think about what they think you have? Ok you try to fool them but are you really paying attention? Is your move at the moment consistent enough to really fool them or are you just fumbling around in the dark making random moves to trick them into doing something?

To me there are mental levels:

1. What I have
2. What they have
3. What they think I have
4. What they think I think they have
5. etc.

In chess this is thinking ahead. Good chess players have their moves all planned out in advance.

In poker you are forced at least into thinking about level 2 if you actually want to win at all. Decent players go to level 3 even if they don't realize they are. Really good players go beyond that. But how often do you consciously try to control what the opponent thinks you have? Do you ever go deeper?

Let's say you notice a habit of theirs and you know exactly what situation causes them to react in a certain way (like fold). Why not take note of exactly what it was that you were doing so that you can reproduce the situation by managing what they think you have? Why not act in a certain way to manage what they think you think they have?

My point is that it goes beyond just watching what the other players are doing. It takes active mental planning and consistent action.

I've been in games where the cards could be blank for all it mattered. If I were better I would have stayed in the game It can be a mind game where you and your opponent both go raising and re-raising to the point that when you turn over your cards you both have garbage and you both knew it. Nobody else at the table had any idea of what was going on and had already folded the best hands. The fun part: neither you nor your opponent were bluffing.

So my questions to anyone out there are:

When is the last time you consciously and purposly controlled what your opponent thought you had without fumbling around in the dark?

How many levels deep did you go?

How many levels deep do you think you are capable of going?

Great post!

I think as you start out your only concerned about your own hand, it's only natural. Then you start reading some books and browse thru the forums and you start putting people on hands and you are able to actually go with your read and if your lucky the guy will show you what he had only to confirm your read, man that feels good the first time your read was spot on!

The 3rd stage comes after time, you will learn it without even thinking about it. I know I am abel to think what they think I have quite good online.
When I play in my weekly cash game with my friends I've known for 15+ years, the reads can become abit more advanced. When you have been playing the same guys for so long you bound to pick a thing or two.

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It's not my picture in my avatar...it's my twin brother

That feeling when I started reading other players hands was great. I especially loved reading weak player's hands because of how profitable it got

It was really cool to get confirmation of others' misreads of my hands too

As half of the fundamental theorem of poker says:

When you play your hand like you could see all their cards, they lose. Every time they play their hands differently than if they could see yours hand, you win.

Those two statements are directly related to levels 2 and 3.

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Proud member of the Woo Hoo crew with: Az Viking, Boiler, and The Zombills

"If it were me I'd bet everything...But that's me -- I'm an aggressive gambler; Mr. Vegas" -- Dewey Oxberger

DONK-the player who just took your chips -- xtra

as you will now be an "Accomplished Donk" -- SonnyChiba

Number of Royal Flushes: 2 -- Poker Room, Pokerstars

You guys must be talking about live games. On line you not only can't see the other persons cards but you can't see them either. In addition people are jumping in and out or you are being moved tables in a tourney. The only way you can guess at what the other person has is by what's on the board and what and when the opponent has bet. I do those things but the drawback is I've had people play a 2-5 like they had a high pocket pair. I mostly think about the pot odds my outs and what can I beat. I have caught many stone cold bluffers on line because they are usually the ones who don't understand about pot odds and calling. Sometimes you must call because the pot odds demand it. I avoid ring games like the plague. I only play them when I must get rakes for something. I never invest more than $10 in a tourney. I am retired and take at least $200 a week off the internet. I'm not interested in competing I only need a little money as a part time job.

__________________
Proud member of the Woo Hoo crew with: Az Viking, Boiler, and The Zombills

"If it were me I'd bet everything...But that's me -- I'm an aggressive gambler; Mr. Vegas" -- Dewey Oxberger

DONK-the player who just took your chips -- xtra

as you will now be an "Accomplished Donk" -- SonnyChiba

Number of Royal Flushes: 2 -- Poker Room, Pokerstars

amazing post. Its something I need to work on a bit more and something I see new people make mistakes in all the time. Players who are so 'tunnel-visioned' on what they hold in their hands and whats on the board usually fail to think about what possible hands their opponent could be holding. Its what sets good from great players.

Putting players on hads is fairly easy if you understand that player and how they play. Newer players are quick to think "He raised preflop, he has a big pocket pair" flop = A 7 6 "He raised me after the flop with an A showing. He has AK, I cant win. " Boom! they muck their hand without much thought.

A great player might view things a bit differently. "That player raised big preflop in early position, he could have big pockets or maybe AK or AQ. I'll call with my J10." flop = J 4 7 "the player made 3/4 size bet on the garbage flop, usually when he's holding a big hand, he makes smaller bets to lure in a re-raise. Im sure he has a strong A and my J is good, I'll raise him." Boom! the opponent folds his AK.

Horrible examples, but if you ever watch any poker shows, pay attention to the hands played that dont get shown down to the river. You'll see this kind of things all the time.