Texas Holdem Forums  
  Main Options
Home
Games Schedule
Member Blogs
Arcade
Poker Articles
Poker Odds Guide
Hand History Converter
THF Bonus Guide
Playing Online
Interviews
THF Tournaments
Member Reviews
THF Product Reviews
Gallery
Poker Links
THF Chat

  Bonus offers
Pacific Poker
25% Bonus Match up to $100
Party Poker
30% Bonus Match up to $150
CDPoker
100% Bonus Match up to $500 using bonus code THF500

  USA Friendly Site
Sportsbook.com Poker
100% Bonus Match up to $1000
  
Quick Links
Please enter your Username:  Password:  to

Welcome to the Poker Forums.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

Click here to register.

Members get :
  • Access to all discussion rooms
  • A Chance to participate in our private member only freerolls.
  • A chance to improve their poker skills and pass on their knowledge to others.
Register today to benefit from all site privileges

Go Back   Poker Forums > Texas Hold Em Rooms > Advice & Strategy > Theory, Advice, Strategies

Pot odds help...

Theory, Advice, Strategies

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-02-2006, 08:26 PM
Post Number: 1 (Link This Post)   
Report this post!
Two Pair
vbrown99 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 54
Shouts:
Credits: 0.44
Exclamation Pot odds help...

I'm a relatively new player (~6 months). I've recently been trying to memorize the odds tables, to make more educated bets/calls/folds...

One common way I've found to find the chance of hitting a hand, is to use the number of outs to give a close approximation of the percentage of time a certain hand will hit after the flop. For example, a 4 flush will hit the 5th flush 35% of the time after the flop (2 cards left), and 19% of the time after the turn (1 card left). You multiply the number of outs (9 in this case) by 4 if you've got 2 cards left, and by 2 if you've got one card left - this will get you close to the 35 & 19% numbers above. This seems to be common knowledge....

I've been trying to make some sense of pot odds though, and how to figure them without having to memorize them. I think I've come up with a neat way to get close, and was wondering if anyone else had seen it? I've not seen it presented this way.

Let's use the example above - you have a 35% chance of hitting a 5th card for your flush after the flop (1.86-1).

35% goes into 100(%) about 3 times. Subtract 1 = 2. You'd need about 2 to one odds to make the call worth it. That's pretty close to the 1.86-1 above...

Say you get 2 pair on the flop and want to go for a full house. You'll hit that 3rd card about 16% of the time (true odds of 5.06-1) 16 divided into 100 is about 6.

6 subtract 1 = pot odds of 5-1. You'd need 5-1 odds or better to make the call worth it...

Maybe this is common knowledge, but I haven't found it anywhere yet, and thought maybe it'd help some folks out who were trying to make sense of the odds...


Last edited by vbrown99; 05-02-2006 at 08:29 PM.
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
   
Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2006, 09:05 PM
Post Number: 2 (Link This Post)   
Report this post!
D's Avatar
D
Life > Poker
D is offline
Approved
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 543
Shouts:
Credits: -22.04
Default

Maybe this can help u : http://www.texasholdemforums.com/odds/odds_chart.php
__________________
No fear poker..
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
   
Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2006, 08:41 PM
Post Number: 3 (Link This Post)   
Report this post!
High Card
Leoncito is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 14
Shouts:
Credits: 10
Default

The way I always do my math is...

You have 47 cards that you dont know after the flop. Suppose you have 5 outs, its almost 1 out of 9 cards. But you have to multiply it for 2 because you can get this card in the river card. Now we have 1 in 4.5.

Its the easier way to calculate everything and it works fine for me. If you are on the turn and waiting for the river card... just dont multiply it for anything and you have your outs.

I know its not always correct this way to calculate the odds and will give you some more pot odds than the actual ones... but its somehow accurate and easy to calculate in a game.

Also you have to think of other odds... the called implied pot odds... I found it quite interesting...

Those are the odds you are getting but... you can lower the requeriment of how much you have to call because if you hit it... you can bet hard and get some money that you werent there to get... Its like... taking a high risk because if you are succesful, you will get more money.

And another thing to calculate is that you might get another combination of cards that would give you the nuts... For example, you have A6 and you think you are against a made pair. You have a pair of 6 and an inside straight draw. You have 4 outs from the straight draw and the outs from the other two 6`s that could came and another Ace would give you the best hand. So its 4 + 2 + 3= 9 outs! This is something you are missing if you just look to the odd's chart and stuff.
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
   
Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2006, 08:52 PM
Post Number: 4 (Link This Post)   
Report this post!
RiveR963's Avatar
Straight
RiveR963 is offline
Approved
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Walsall, England
Posts: 485
Shouts:
Credits: 147.085
Default

Can someone please explain how important pot odds really are, I never quite understand this.
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
   
Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2006, 10:06 PM
Post Number: 5 (Link This Post)   
Report this post!
Banned
SonnyChiba is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: "United Kingdom"
Posts: 2,479
Shouts:
Credits: 182.815
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiveR963
Can someone please explain how important pot odds really are, I never quite understand this.

I'm sure most poker players would agree with you River....I just feel it's dependant on how people look at them......they may well think because they don't (such as me) know all the % etc, +EV, -EV that they don't play odds in all fairness I feel this is the pure calculated way of playing poker.....and winning at it, don't get me wrong.

But such as myself I still more than understand what good cards are, bad cards are, what can beat them, what they can beat, how much value I have in the pot, the chips I have, chips they have, my position....which in essence are all part of what makes the odds up....but yet still I don't perceive myself as an "Odds" player very rarely will you here me talk about poker regarding % and odds, +EV, -EV that’s not because I don't understand what any of them are it's just not the way I play....It's kind of hard to explain...I suppose there are two kinds of poker players those who do the odds and those who don't....But I don't feel it means that either player knows anymore or any less about the Odds of poker just because their understandings of what they are vary.

I used to feel quite indimidated by these kind of post's but now I have to read them as the poster 9/10 times really is spot on with what they are saying and becuse figures are used it makes it far easier for me to understand what they are trying to say.......however I could never post like that, why would I want to say in one % what I can say in twenty words (lol ).

But yet still I have the up most respect to those who can and do, Stato's as I call them basically they can tell you anything you want to know about anything....!!!!!

I'm sure this is as clear as mud.....

IMO of course

Last edited by SonnyChiba; 05-15-2006 at 10:18 PM.
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
   
Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2006, 10:13 PM
Post Number: 6 (Link This Post)   
Report this post!
RiveR963's Avatar
Straight
RiveR963 is offline
Approved
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Walsall, England
Posts: 485
Shouts:
Credits: 147.085
Default

Even though I understand how to figure the percentages, expected value etc, I dont really think it helps me game even though perhaps it does. I would consider myself more of a 'feel' player but I would still like to know from people who constantly use the maths, why it is so important?
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
   
Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2006, 10:21 PM
Post Number: 7 (Link This Post)   
Report this post!
Banned
SonnyChiba is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: "United Kingdom"
Posts: 2,479
Shouts:
Credits: 182.815
Talking

River sorry dude got the complete wrong end of your post.....!!!!

"Feel player"......If only I knew them words before I wrote my post...I'm a "feel player"...I like that!

God didn't I go on before.......lol

Last edited by SonnyChiba; 05-15-2006 at 10:24 PM.
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
   
Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2006, 10:24 PM
Post Number: 8 (Link This Post)   
Report this post!
RiveR963's Avatar
Straight
RiveR963 is offline
Approved
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Walsall, England
Posts: 485
Shouts:
Credits: 147.085
Default

Hehe no problem Sonny it was a good post.

By 'feel' player I mean by the betting. If I sense a weak bet I'll re-raise you with my 3 high straight away
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
   
Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2006, 02:56 AM
Post Number: 9 (Link This Post)   
Report this post!
wbtczn's Avatar
Professional Bubbler
wbtczn is offline
Approved
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 631
Shouts:
Credits: 152.98
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiveR963
Even though I understand how to figure the percentages, expected value etc, I dont really think it helps me game even though perhaps it does. I would consider myself more of a 'feel' player but I would still like to know from people who constantly use the maths, why it is so important?
You have to use many tools at your disposal to make choices during the game. Pot odds is just one piece. Other things that come to mind are:
  • Table image
  • Position
  • If in a tournament, what point of the tournament are you in?
  • Chip stack relative to the table / tournament
  • Chip stack relative to the chip leader
  • Your read of the other player(s) in the pot
__________________
Proud member of the Woo Hoo crew with: Az Viking, Boiler, and The Zombills

"If it were me I'd bet everything...But that's me -- I'm an aggressive gambler; Mr. Vegas" -- Dewey Oxberger

DONK-the player who just took your chips -- xtra

as you will now be an "Accomplished Donk" -- SonnyChiba

Number of Royal Flushes: 2 -- Poker Room, Pokerstars
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
   
Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2006, 03:46 AM
Post Number: 10 (Link This Post)   
Report this post!
Straight Flush
Scottishben is offline
Approved
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: fortrose
Posts: 2,038
Shouts:
Credits: 6949.23
Default

pot odds are a very important part of a quality poker players arsnal. This is the long and the short of it.

If you are playing ring games then it is really essential that you grasp pot odds as otherwise you will lower your expected value in many given situations.

Pot odds ARE however far less important than some people would make out. Pot odds only really apply when you know what you need to win the hand. Quality reads are important for that. For instance if your opponent has only k high verses your Aqs then the fact that the board is 256 with 2 of your suit is irrelevant in many ways. If he held 34 then it is a different story. I have called HUGE raises in small pots with only an ace high flush draw because I have read my opponent as holding Kx of the flush suit. If I had read him different pot odds would have resoundingly told me to fold.

Far more time should be spent studying common betting sequences than ever is spent on pot odds. This is where far too many mistakes are made. Not understanding pot odds correctly will lead to you making loads of mistakes though that will reduce your profits. Intuitive application of pot odds will certainly lower your EV where there are errors but most people have enough of a sense of pot odds that there are other parts of their game they should be focusing on instead.

There are so many factors involved in tournament play that a player can make pot odds errors and not have the effects immediately noticed. Whilst many people know roughly the odds of flushes and straights (even if they call much higher than the might on the basis of "implied odds" calling all ins in pots with some value with trash can often be correct pot odds wise and this is often forgotten. It is quite possible to win tournaments without correctly applying pot odds - you will just need to be a little bit luckier - thats all.

Moving on to the issue of non instinctive styles of play though...

I sometimes play a "math" game. In everything sub a 100$ buy in it gets you making the correct decisions most of the time with far less error margin and far less drain on your energy than a read/feel based game if you are really studying the board closely.

Key consepts that I would associate with a technical as opposed to an intuitive game are

a) the gap concept
b) start hand requirements
c) implied odds
d) pot odds
e) mathematically influenced tournament strategies - including adapting pot odds for tournaments to encorporate a math influenced true value system.

to list a few

Aside from this you can go one stage further and play a "card" based game.

With this very little effort is put into formulating reads on your opponents and most is put on applying the correct "strategy" to a given hand/situation. Whilst this is not a perfect approach to the game a good system should have you making a small profit which is better than most people manage.

The error factors involved in most people's read based games overway the weaknesses of a more card focused approach for most players.

I am firmly of the view that any two cards are playable but it is kind of like racing a fancy motorbike on a BMX - you might win but only with a lot of effort.
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
   
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:35 AM. | Page copy protected against web site content infringement by Copyscape

  Latest THF threads : Add to Google Add to My Yahoo! Subscribe in NewsGator Online Add to My AOL

 
 
   A Texas Holdem Forums Development | Unique Skin owned by Texas Holdem Forums and optimised for a 1024x768 resolution and above
   Site design and content Copyright© of Texas Holdem Forums | It may not be reproduced without our consent
   Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.7.1. Copyright © 2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.