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Go Back   Poker Forums > Texas Hold Em Rooms > Playing Online

Is the deck rigged at Poker Stars?

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Old 09-12-2004, 11:16 AM
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Default Is the deck rigged at Poker Stars?

QUICK READ VERSION:

1. Random Number Generator, (RNG) is a microchip, that deals the cards to make a new deck.

2. There are 4 inputs to a RNG. The “seed”, P1, P2 and N.

3. There are 2 main types of RNG’s in use for gaming. Linear RNG's and Thermal Entropy RNG's.

4. Linear RNG’s can be easily manipulated to give a predictable output by inserting known numbers for the "seed", P1, P2 and N.

5. Thermal Entropy means gathering environmental "noise" from device drivers and other electronic sources around the device. Imagine the noise from cars on all of the highways in the USA being monitored at once into a totally unpredictable noise pool which would never-ever be the same. This noise is stopped for a nanosecond and is turned into a binary number. That binary number is then routed to one of the 4 inputs of the RNG. This process repeats for P1, P2 and N. It is astronomically impossible to repeat matching inputs to all 4 nodes of the RNG. In this sense, true randomness is acheived.

6. Thermal Entropy RNG’s are NOT able to be manipulated as the inputs to the “seed”, P1, P2 and N are determined by “noise” in the electronic neighborhood.

7. Poker, slots, Keno and other machines in Vegas use linear RNG’s which can be programmed to provide repeatable outputs. There is NOTHING random about those outputs and they are varied to meet the casino’s need for profit.

8. Poker Stars claims to use an Intel, Thermal Entropy RNG that has been tested by the most prestigious of research teams to be a truly random device.

MAIN ARTICLE

I always hear people bitch and complain that the deals are too much in favor of the lower hand going into a showdown. The truth in my opinion is that it is 99.99% random. I have researched how the hands are electronically dealt with a random number generator and how to insure true randomness.

After researching the deal and random number generators this is how the deck is shuffled. First the deck of 52 is shuffled. Then the top card is placed on a "table" Then the remaining 51 cards are shuffled again. Then the top card is once again taken off, but placed on top of the card that is on the "table" Once again the procedure starts only with 50 cards, then 49 and on and on until 2 cards are left. What you are left with is a deck on an imaginary "table". That deck is then used to deal off the top 1 by 1 card to make peoples hands for that deal and the subsequent flop, turn and river.

To fully understand the bottom paragraphs, see the scatter chart and learn about the "seed" in Random Number Generators by clicking on this link: http://www.math.utah.edu/~alfeld/Random/Random.html

There is a Java based program on that page to run a "linear" random number generator and play with the "seed" of that function. By manipulating the "seed" (increase the seed value in the Java window) you will see the scatter chart lose its random nature. That is how casinos in Las Vegas "tighten" or "loosen" the electronic poker machines. For instance during very busy holiday periods the casinos may lower the payouts and increase the house revenue by tightening the "seed." When the casinos are not busy, they loosen the "seed" to attract people with better payouts. All of this can be done remotely from a central operations room in the casino that controls all machines, poker, slots, keno, etc.

Now even though Poker Stars could play with the "seed" there is no logical reason in my opinion for them to do that. Since they don't make money by people putting quarters in a machine they have no vested interest in manipulating the deck. It is in their best interest to insure true random play for when the accounting firms come to review their hand histories to certify them as honest.

Nevada State Gaming Laws allow the casinos to manipulate the payouts. What? Yes of course. How else can they say that a bank of poker machines in a satellite will return a 99% payout ratio without being able to manipulate the machine? They use a "seed" to generate predictable hands over an extended period of time. However Nevada State Gaming Laws also have a minimum low payout figure that all casinos must abide by.

Now Poker Stars claims to use an Intel Random Generator chip with the added security of "thermal entropy" to insure complete randomness. This random number generator gathers environmental noise (called thermal entropy) from device drivers and other sources into an entropy pool which then sets off the RNG to act in a totally random nature. Normal linear (non-thermal entropy) RNG's have been known to be "hacked" and the outputs can be predetermined. There is no way anyone can hack a thermal entropy RNG as it is set off not by a seed, but by thermal noise. Now keep in mind that even if a RNG was hacked you could only predetermine 1 hand after another that you were involved in. Since it is impossible for you to be in every consecutive hand dealt by Poker Stars, even by hacking a "linear" RNG you would not have the luxury of any advantage. So, to have any ability to predict hands on the Poker Stars software and output of the thermal RNG's is without a doubt 100% impossible. Bottom line: Anyone that thinks the hands at Poker Stars are rigged or thinks they can predict the hands is full of bullshit.

I have heard people say that they have heard of a program that will read the other player's cards in a given hand at the table they are at. That is false. The hand information that the server generates for your particular hand is only sent to you for your cards and the community hand, and the rest of the information is kept in house. There is no way you could crack the other players hands as you don't have access to their hand information at your terminal. However, if a person could hack into the Poker Stars server, theoretically they could monitor the hand you were involved in. But, all of that information is encrypted in house anyway, and not only would you need to breach the firewalls of Poker Stars, and gain entry to their computers, you would also need to bypass the encryption process which is impossible. I doubt if the NSA or FBI's top-notch computer geniuses of the world could even come close to gaining access to that information.

PriceWaterhouse or whatever accounting firm that checks the deals periodically at Poker Stars or any online casino, take a sample of a number of past hands dealt that is statistically good enough to make a accurate prediction of fair play. The results of those deals are plotted on a scatter chart and that scatter chart will visually show any trends. Any "clumping" of points on a scatter chart will reveal events that are not truly random.
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Old 09-15-2004, 09:08 PM
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Default Re: Is the deck rigged at Poker Stars?

I believe thats bullcrap, first of all its totally rigged. I've yet to see someone lose to a runner runner 1 out in real life and it has happened to me on pokerstars 3 times costing me several hundreds of dollars...one instance i lost with 56 in the BB flop comes down 566..turn is 2 i raise guy goes all in he has 22 hits 2 on river....i've lost with AA after i had flop A2J ...lost to A2 who reraised me all in hit runner runner 2's...lost with KK to K3 after flop was K3 9...runner 3's that just doesnt happen in real life and if you got those beats even on the internet you wouldnt know what to do...to make it seem random pokerstars will give you good hands at times when they think u deserve to win....you will notice that after you cash out your odds of winning a tournament will decrease and if you deposit your odds increase again...funny how that works but you all can believe it works....thats how they get you ... and unfortunately i'll continue to play on pokerstars only because i'm so close to being on the TLB
  
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Old 09-16-2004, 12:12 AM
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Default Re: Is the deck rigged at Poker Stars?

If you use the stats on the live play cash tables at PS, the average amount of hands is about 65 per hour. From my experience in live casino play you are lucky if you can finish 1 hand in 2-4 minutes, (more like 3 minutes) which would be 20 hands per hour. To me everything is more up close and personal on the PC. No casino distractions and the cards are right in my face instead of having to twist and turn to see the cards on a live table. Also your hole cards are always in your face which may account for more of a memory component to remembering situations online vs. live casino play.

Personally I have seen a runner runner in live action in a casino on more than 1 occasion and I don’t play all that much live in casinos. I have been beat a few times by runner runner on Poker Stars and I have also beat people with a runner runner. The last time I beat someone was I believe TheWombat. He had AA and I had A7. We both went all in. My stack was short and it was a desperation move for me. The flop was insignificant. The turn was a 7 and the river was a 7. About all he said was “That just isn’t right anyway you look at it.” I agreed with him, it was shitty.

Bottom line to me is that I think you are a bit spooked and as much as you play (I have seen you on Poker Stars lots!) you just have to expect horrible things to happen to you now and then. Why should you be totally exempt from crazy shit happening to you? It sure happens to me.

As far as you’re cashing out statement and then not winning, I have no experience of that happening to me. Has anyone else noticed that? What would be the benefit to Poker Stars for doing that? I see no motive for profit. Maybe someone else can explain it to me. The cash just gets pushed around to players at Stars and not to the house.
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Old 09-17-2004, 06:00 PM
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Default Re: Is the deck rigged at Poker Stars?

The human mind is tuned to focus on negative instances. That is why everyone and their dog has a badbeat story that is worse than yours. Its this simple: 3 times the hands, 3 times the badbeats. Name me a badbeat you have seen and I have seen it live. I had a beat last week on stars that pitted A's vs A's and K's vs K's in the same hand all four all in. I had aces and the other guy made a flush and even that doesn't make me believe it is rigged because I have see the EXACT same scenario with K's and Q's live in a limit game. Leave superstition by the wayside. The only rigging going on at Pstars is in the limit ring games and it is called collusion and Pstars does their best to eliminate it. I challenge you to find a colluder 1 time and mail pstars. Within 30 minutes you will get an indepth investigation into that accused player's play. Pstars support will mail you with the details. I was quite impressed with their investigative efforts. Now I am rambling off on a tangent. Best of Luck all.
  
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Old 09-17-2004, 09:58 PM
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Default Re: Is the deck rigged at Poker Stars?

Madman I agree with you 100%. I have emailed support at pokerstars many times with normal issues that really didn't require an immediate response and they replied faster than any customer service I have ever dealt with on the internet. That includes all websites and businesses and not just gambling.

I won't play ring games either due to the collusion factor unless I am really bored and then I only play max of $1/$2 games. Tourneys (multi's) and (sit-n-gos) I feel the collusion factor is about nil. Granted, someone could start a sit-n-go with their buddy, but even if they were to exchange information on a phone with each other the advantage is pretty marginal at best. Now prior to PS banning chat when someone goes all in, I did go all in and a couple of guys exchanged information via player chat to see which one of them was going to go all in against me. I emailed support and within a week or two they had modified the software to ban chat when someone goes all in. Was it me that pointed it out? I don't know, but they sure took action.

Also I have emailed Lee Jones the Pokerstars Poker room manager and he personally has responded to my email in short order.
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Old 09-26-2004, 12:00 AM
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Default Re: Is the deck rigged at Poker Stars?

There are hundreds of games running at a time at Poker Stars...How could it be rigged? However, it does explain how alot of things such as runner runner coming up.
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Old 10-06-2004, 01:49 AM
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Default Re: Is the deck rigged at Poker Stars?

I have also had many bad beats on PS, and even though it seems like I never seem to catch any myself that is what has me convinced it isn't rigged because if it was I would be getting those catches myself, I just call it Bad Luck, heh. Also, madman is right you always remember the negative, it goes the same for anything in life, I recently started playing at a new pokersite and noticied I wasn't getting all those bad beats, then after about a week it started to average out and it looks like my bad luck follows me everywhere...anyways I'm new to the forums and mostly play on PS, under the name halvey18, but only play for the lower stakes, everyonce in a while I'll be at a $10 tourney or a .50/1, but besides that its 6.50s and .10/.25.
Nice site and btw anyone wanting to stake me a few hundred would be appreciated ;D, c-ya
  
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Old 10-30-2004, 04:59 PM
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Default Re: Is the deck rigged at Poker Stars?

hey

last night within an hour or so I had 22 four times, and every single time I flopped a 2. Not that I'm complaining (haha) but what are the chances of that?

also I notice if you are chasing a gutshot low straight ie A5 flop/turn 23Q8 the amount of times the river completes your straight is uncanny, its happened to me several times, not that I'm complaining (haha)

conclusion:

22 is worth a good look,

and chase that low inside straight down!
  
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Old 10-30-2004, 05:43 PM
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Default Re: Is the deck rigged at Poker Stars?

bush man, I agree Pocket 2s are great, I hardly ever lose all in with em, as you can see by my signature
  
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Old 10-30-2004, 08:05 PM
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Default Re: Is the deck rigged at Poker Stars?

I have played many, many hours in a casino. I have seen all the same things in the way of bad beats as I have on the internet. The truly bad beats, such as straight flush over straight flush, quads over quads, seem as rare as they should be online with x times the amount of hands. There are simply a quantity of players who gamble in poker, and that has only increased thanks to televised poker. Although I have respect for you Tru, I have a different opinion, I haven't experienced the cashout curse thing I keep hearing about on all the sites. I don't chat when I play so thanks for the opportunity to say some things I have always wanted to discuss.

Mel0dic
  
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