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weak steals seem to be better than strong steals Playing Online  | | 
04-26-2008, 06:19 AM
| | | |  weak steals seem to be better than strong steals
They all want to call your strong bets from an early position to a good flop...but what I noticed is that they all fold to a weak bet from early position. it's like, they don't believe your strong bet, but they will believe your weak bet!...so I have made a lot of weak bet steals and the beauty is that your not risking much!
I also laugh at the guy who makes a very strong pre-flop raise and then the under the gun player bets the minimum on a blank flop and the strong pre-flop bettor folds.
Last edited by CRAPSHOOT; 04-26-2008 at 06:33 AM.
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04-26-2008, 06:24 PM
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yes crapshoot you have finally found the key. This is excellent strategy and besides stealing you are also feeling out your oppenent with these bets. So say your oppenent is just calling these small bets on the flop and 4th street, well then, put there hand together and if they are still weak in your mind then hit them hard on the river, this is where you will have to up the size of your bluff the grand finale to the hand, maximum 3 shell pressure. Now keep in mind checking when u have nothing in a big pot because you feel your oppenent is not releasing or trapping you is also a fine art and a good check can be just as good as a big bluff.
GO CRAPSHOOT$$$ | | |
04-27-2008, 04:36 AM
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good posts both of you, Just played a session and used this strategy and did notice a much higher percentage of folds to my continuation bets, There's definetly something in this. | | |
04-28-2008, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRAPSHOOT  They all want to call your strong bets from an early position to a good flop...but what I noticed is that they all fold to a weak bet from early position. it's like, they don't believe your strong bet, but they will believe your weak bet!...so I have made a lot of weak bet steals and the beauty is that your not risking much! | I seem to recall you saying that like me you infest the smaller stakes games. Basically there are a lot of gamblers as opposed to players. Gamblers are crazy. They play at a level they can afford, but then give them the chance to play for more and they can't resist, so they'll call a big raise preflop. There are others who can't see a preflop raise as anything other than a steal. They are also crazy. Give them a small bet and it looks suspicious so they fold : or its not a big enough bet to give them the gamblers buzz so they play their hand sensibly and fold.
This just isn't going to work against agressive players at higher levels. Any small bet or raise is seen as weak and taken as an invite for a big reraise. Quote:
Originally Posted by CRAPSHOOT I also laugh at the guy who makes a very strong pre-flop raise and then the under the gun player bets the minimum on a blank flop and the strong pre-flop bettor folds. | Why?
There are lots of hands that are raising hands but which look totally stupid against a bad flop. Worse, you just identified UTG as a probable slow player as he has called a later raise, so he could still be winning regardless of the flop. Even if those hands look ok-ish, there may be things like low two pair or small sets to worry about. Many people won't slow play two pair or a set, neither will they bet them out, instead they put out a minimum bet, on the grounds that a) they win more than with a slow play which may just end up getting checked down; b) agressive players read that as weak and may pay them off with a reraise. So, you had a decent hand preflop and raised, and now you are looking at a known "minimum bettor when strong" making a minimum bet. You can't fly in the face of what you know. You saying you would not fold? So why is it funny when someone else does it?
Or are you like me? And pay off the strong hand by being aggressive? When that happens to me I can't see "well I could have folded" as being funny to my opponents when what I actually did was funny to my opponents. | | |
04-28-2008, 02:32 AM
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Steal the pot. You people actually steal while playing poker. Shame on you. | | |
04-28-2008, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacingDog I seem to recall you saying that like me you infest the smaller stakes games. Basically there are a lot of gamblers as opposed to players. Gamblers are crazy. They play at a level they can afford, but then give them the chance to play for more and they can't resist, so they'll call a big raise preflop. There are others who can't see a preflop raise as anything other than a steal. They are also crazy. Give them a small bet and it looks suspicious so they fold : or its not a big enough bet to give them the gamblers buzz so they play their hand sensibly and fold.
This just isn't going to work against agressive players at higher levels. Any small bet or raise is seen as weak and taken as an invite for a big reraise.
Why?
There are lots of hands that are raising hands but which look totally stupid against a bad flop. Worse, you just identified UTG as a probable slow player as he has called a later raise, so he could still be winning regardless of the flop. Even if those hands look ok-ish, there may be things like low two pair or small sets to worry about. Many people won't slow play two pair or a set, neither will they bet them out, instead they put out a minimum bet, on the grounds that a) they win more than with a slow play which may just end up getting checked down; b) agressive players read that as weak and may pay them off with a reraise. So, you had a decent hand preflop and raised, and now you are looking at a known "minimum bettor when strong" making a minimum bet. You can't fly in the face of what you know. You saying you would not fold? So why is it funny when someone else does it?
Or are you like me? And pay off the strong hand by being aggressive? When that happens to me I can't see "well I could have folded" as being funny to my opponents when what I actually did was funny to my opponents. | Ok dog, look the guy raises 4 or 5 times pre-flop...he is saying he has strong cards, so now the UDG bets the minimum, well if your cards are so strong pre-flop and the flop is ugly and you are faced with a minimum bet then why in the world would you fold to a minimum bet...sure the UTG could have slow played the pre-flop and sure he could be slow playing the flop, but you are folding to a minimum bet to your oh so strong pre-flop cards with 2 more cards to hit the board and improve your dynamite cards, what is a minimum call even if he is slow playing to your super cards...or were you really bluffing!without following through. Another old trick is to bet the minimum from an early position when you have a hand that you are trying to hit, in the hopes of keeping someone else from betting large to try and take the pot down, your bet tells them that they better not try it, which in this case he could be trying to avoid a large bet from the pre-flop raiser.
You have no evidence at this time that UTG is slowplaying, so you don't fold to the minimum bet. If you have garbage fine, but you just said you don't have garbage, you said you have a very strong hand. If you really think he is slow playing, then fine don't raise him, call him, but don't fold....actually a raise would be good here to test him on how strong he is. Only a wimp would fold. Thinking is nothing without testing, hell I can think that one of my opponents is slowplaying AA on the pre-flop every hand, when they limp in, does that mean that I should never get in a hand.
Last edited by CRAPSHOOT; 04-28-2008 at 07:31 AM.
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04-28-2008, 11:58 PM
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IF the guy is UTG then he must have limped before you raised preflop, so actually you do have some evidence of a slow play. Whether you fold or call or raise the subseqent minimum bet depends on both your hand and his previous play. If the the guy has been seen slow playing before then the evidence is there.
Only a wimp would fold is too simple. There are many hands like AT off which are worth a raise preflop but which are very vulnerable. For example, KQ off, you have no draw on the flop which is Axx. In most circumstances you may want to stay in the hand, but against a known slow player who slow plays AK etc??? All I can say is I lost a lot of chips "not being wimp" before I decided there are times when it pays to be a wimp. I mean you can't keep coming up against a known chip losing situation without learning to avoid them.
And anyway, being macho and not a wimp is one of the best known ways of losing chips. I still do it far too often, it is still costing me dear. Just tonight, in an sng with just 3 of us left and with the chip lead, because the player was not a known slow player, on successive hands I did it your way and lost most of my chips in just two successive hands because they had hit the flop both times. Now, if I had listened to my own advice, that would not have happened. So what was right? Being macho or being a wimp? Had I been a wimp I would have been still in with a healthy stack, but no I was macho and crippled. Yeah good result, really impressed with not being a wimp. | | |
04-29-2008, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacingDog IF the guy is UTG then he must have limped before you raised preflop, so actually you do have some evidence of a slow play. Whether you fold or call or raise the subseqent minimum bet depends on both your hand and his previous play. If the the guy has been seen slow playing before then the evidence is there.
Only a wimp would fold is too simple. There are many hands like AT off which are worth a raise preflop but which are very vulnerable. For example, KQ off, you have no draw on the flop which is Axx. In most circumstances you may want to stay in the hand, but against a known slow player who slow plays AK etc??? All I can say is I lost a lot of chips "not being wimp" before I decided there are times when it pays to be a wimp. I mean you can't keep coming up against a known chip losing situation without learning to avoid them.
And anyway, being macho and not a wimp is one of the best known ways of losing chips. I still do it far too often, it is still costing me dear. Just tonight, in an sng with just 3 of us left and with the chip lead, because the player was not a known slow player, on successive hands I did it your way and lost most of my chips in just two successive hands because they had hit the flop both times. Now, if I had listened to my own advice, that would not have happened. So what was right? Being macho or being a wimp? Had I been a wimp I would have been still in with a healthy stack, but no I was macho and crippled. Yeah good result, really impressed with not being a wimp. | I don't understand dog, you lost a healthy stack by calling a 20 chip flop bet?
What I was talking about was when someone raises pre-flop large and in some cases I have seen 250+ chip raises on a 20 chip blind, then the UTG bets 20 on the blank, low, rainbow, non str8 connecting flop and the pre-flop raiser folds. The call odds would be astounding by the large pre-flop bet and call alone, yet to mention the other chips that would be in the pot. Now if your pocket cards are not worth the odds call here, then your pocket cards were definitely not worth the 250+ pre-flop raise. There is nothing macho about calling off 20 chips to a dead flop board when you have super calling odds, especially when you just bet 12 1/2+ x's that amount with your pre-flop bet, you must have some very nice pockets to bet that amount pre-flop, so why not call the 20 flop bet.
Now if you called a 20 chip flop bet after making a huge pre-flop bet that got you into calling much larger turn and river bets...well that has really nothing to do with losing all of your chips because of your 20 chip flop call. you and your opponent would have had to make some very healthy turn and/or river bets/calls and that is a totally different subject altogether. How much did you raise pre-flop? How small was the flop call?
Last edited by CRAPSHOOT; 04-29-2008 at 09:09 AM.
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04-29-2008, 11:56 PM
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Ah, yes I see. I was being macho and raising  .
But the main reason for folding would be becoming convinced that UTG has hit 2 pair or trips. You can't work this out for sure in general, but I never said always, I said sometimes. Sometimes you get the feeling that that is what has happened so you don't waste even one BB.
It is of course even more dangerous to call anything if there there is an obvious straight, flush, or boat. But again, it is not always, it is not never, it depends on who.
Nothing in poker should be always or never, that implies being on automatic pilot and not thinking. And if someone has thought then it is presumptious to say wimp. In general, wimp, but always wimp? I think not. | | |
04-30-2008, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacingDog Ah, yes I see. I was being macho and raising .
But the main reason for folding would be becoming convinced that UTG has hit 2 pair or trips. You can't work this out for sure in general, but I never said always, I said sometimes. Sometimes you get the feeling that that is what has happened so you don't waste even one BB.
It is of course even more dangerous to call anything if there there is an obvious straight, flush, or boat. But again, it is not always, it is not never, it depends on who.
Nothing in poker should be always or never, that implies being on automatic pilot and not thinking. And if someone has thought then it is presumptious to say wimp. In general, wimp, but always wimp? I think not. | Well maybe dog, but what it tells me is that the pre-flop raiser was a bad bluffer...a very bad bluffer. What it tells me is that the UTG wanted to see another cards so he made a small bet so that the raiser would not hit him up with another very large bet like he did pre-flop, the UTG's thinking was let him think that I hit something, so don't come back at me, just call me and if he does come back at me I will fold, I just don't want to lose too many chips trying to see the next card, but it is OK if I lose 20 chips to see if I can get this done. The raiser's thought was...oh oh he caught me, I don't want to expose myself as a bluffer so I better get out of here.
Now if that is not right, then what were you thinking when you made that large pre-flop bet, just how good were your cards when you represented yourself as AA, KK , AK or at least pp and if your cards were that good...then throw out pot odds when they are immensely in your favor for at least a call to see another card?...Stu Unger is turning over in his grave!
You have found out nothing about your opponent in this hand yet and his past play does not count yet...if it does, then what? run every time he limps because he can slow play!...that is pure magic, I wish I could get my opponents to run from me every time I limp....move over Dario I'm getting a Porsche also!
Last edited by CRAPSHOOT; 04-30-2008 at 12:50 AM.
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