There is just no way that you can play real poker with these donks!

I'm trying to be understanding and you all keep talking about about things like pot odds, looking at the opponents bets and raises, look at the board cards and then make a wise decision.....ha ha ha ha lol...give me a phucken break these players are nothing but a total pack of moron donks.

I just got out of a SNG. I had AQ, the flop was AQJ, I raise 4x's (I don't believe in slow playing) and I get a caller, the turn is a 5, I raise 10x's and I get called again, the river is a T...now we got a problem, because a K makes Broadway and the the board went to 4 diamonds, well I didn't want to back off there and give my opponent a chance to take it away so I bet 4x's and my opponent raises me back 20x's...now I'm thinking I should lay it down, there is not one chance to beat me there are 2 chances and all he needs is a single diamond...but I start to think and I say phuck it they are all morons and I call, what does he show me...2 clubs and 4 spades...lol my Jesus, can they really be that stupid...fine he tried to steal at the river...but I bet first, you must have to figure me for a diamond, maybe not large, but a diamond non the less....and secondly what the phuck were you doing calling all those bets with a dead hand, yet alone to mention the pre-flop call of 4x's. You want me to give these morons credit and and analyze their hands, their play and the board cards...get serious.

The game before this on the first hand, I raised PF 4x's with AT suited diamonds, 5 callers, the board flops three spades, 3,5 9... the first bettor bets 10x's...now I'm really not staying in for any bet, but I thought to myself, he does not have a flush, but he probably has an A of spades and if he doesn't then someone else has a high spade, the only time I would even think of making a call here is I had a minimum of a Aces of spades, so I fold and he gets 3 callers...well the board did not drop another spade, but this bettor kept getting stronger on every card...what was he betting on...no spades and a gut shot draw that he did not hit with his 4,6 off.

Later in the game I get AK spades, I raise pre-flop 20x's, I get 1 caller the board is dead but there is one hart, I now bet 40x's and he calls again, the turn is another heart and again I bet 40x's and he calls, on the river the third heart flops...what does he have 3, 7 off and the river gave him a str8...he was calling with a gut shot all the way...I got into a verbal with him and called him a moron...I said what the phuck were you doing calling a 20x's pre-flop bet with 3,7 off...He said I will always call with a 3, 7 and even with a 3, 9 read a book will ya. Well I put him on tilt because if I was a blind he would make sure that he was in the pot, if I bet he would raise, so I sat back and waited, he had a large stack because he sucked out on another opponent in a ridicules all-in, my playing only against him payed off as I did end up getting all his chips and won the tournament. I wish I could remember some other hands from this game, because they even got better.

But my point is how can you get serious in these online games and analyze the cards and the play...now you might do that, but then you have to put in the moron factor...so you just might flip a coin.

Hey crapshoot reload ur msn bud, turn on messenger. I think u might have a virus, Try to get u on messenger and wont go through.

You got to be careful about this. Yes there are many donks who play bad cards. But to say playing bad cards is automatically to be dismissed as donk play is to ignore the whole subject of bluffing. Now it is true that many donks have heard of bluffing and think they should just do it without realising that the bluff has to be credible. So between the donks and the bluffing donks we can cover most of what you are talking about. So before you read the rest please note, in the main I agree with you. But....

Now I rarely get a big enough stack to do this and probably wouldn't even if I did, and it is a weakness of mine. However, it is recognised that one standard bluff sequence is to call into raise that you can afford to call and you keep calling to the river when you raise big. Players who do this are looking at the board. If there are few hands they could represent they get out early and you have no idea that this is what they were doing. But the more the board shows draw possibilities, or the board pairs, the more the board is taking on a shape which will permit a believable bluff on the river. Of course you may still read it as a bluff, but when you then see the cards, if you then say the guy is a donk, you have failed to give him credit for using an advanced form of bluff.

All I am trying to say is, a small percentage of the time, the guy with the bad cards is not a donk.

But as for the guy who will always call with 37, all I can suggest is dropping a line to those nice men in white coats and get them to fit him with one of those shirts that fastens up the back. If he did it occassionally as preparation for a bluff fine, but always trying to bluff is just dumb because it becomes so easy to read.

Been thinking overnight.....

First, you seem to be going through a bad patch given other posts. Take a break. They can last months and they only get worse as your mood gets worse.

Second, I didn't answer the question, how do you play these people.

Against the river bluffer the solution is simple, you just go allin before the river, you can't be bluffed then. If you have the largest stack in the hand then just bet enough to put others allin, as your own allin could be seen as a bluff itself.

With chasers in general there is less you can do because some will still call the allin on the flop, but it is again the best defence as it will scare off many of them.

I make these mistakes far too often. I learnt on pot limit and old habits die hard, especially as you can play better level no limit games as though they were pot limit for the majority of hands. So expect to see me not following my own advice and cursing the donks as a result.

It just gets disgusting dog, it seems that every phucken game you face these people, as in:

(25/50) - 2008/04/04 - 01:51:38 (ET)
Table '83414067 1' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: zrwill07 (1730 in chips)
Seat 2: LEHawkeye (2395 in chips)
Seat 3: dna danny (860 in chips)
Seat 5: bd2814 (1755 in chips)
Seat 7: xCRAPSHOOTx (2460 in chips)
Seat 8: L4M3R1 (2895 in chips)
Seat 9: muck'n mama (1405 in chips)
L4M3R1: posts small blind 25
muck'n mama: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xCRAPSHOOTx [Jd Ad]
zrwill07: folds
LEHawkeye: folds
dna danny: calls 50
bd2814: folds
xCRAPSHOOTx: raises 150 to 200
L4M3R1: folds
muck'n mama: folds
dna danny: calls 150
*** FLOP *** [Kd Kh 6c]
dna danny: checks
xCRAPSHOOTx: bets 250
dna danny: calls 250
*** TURN *** [Kd Kh 6c] [Kc]
dna danny: bets 300
xCRAPSHOOTx: raises 300 to 600
dna danny: calls 110 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Kd Kh 6c Kc] [7d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dna danny: shows [6h Jc] (a full house, Kings full of Sixes)
xCRAPSHOOTx: shows [Jd Ad] (three of a kind, Kings)
dna danny collected 1795 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1795 | Rake 0
Board [Kd Kh 6c Kc 7d]
Seat 1: zrwill07 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: LEHawkeye folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: dna danny showed [6h Jc] and won (1795) with a full house, Kings full of Sixes
Seat 5: bd2814 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: xCRAPSHOOTx (button) showed [Jd Ad] and lost with three of a kind, Kings
Seat 8: L4M3R1 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: muck'n mama (big blind) folded before Flop

Forget the rest of the hand...how does he call the PF bet with absolute garbage.

Or in this hand...does he really think he has something going for him with Ace high shit kicker. The only way that I could call was to use the donk factor!

Table '83414067 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: zrwill07 (1480 in chips)
Seat 2: LEHawkeye (1470 in chips)
Seat 3: dna danny (1270 in chips)
Seat 4: HELPDESKFTW (1760 in chips)
Seat 5: bd2814 (1560 in chips)
Seat 6: oJUSTMEo (1140 in chips)
Seat 7: xCRAPSHOOTx (1660 in chips)
Seat 8: L4M3R1 (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: muck'n mama (1660 in chips)
xCRAPSHOOTx: posts small blind 10
L4M3R1: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xCRAPSHOOTx [Qd Ad]
muck'n mama: calls 20
zrwill07: folds
LEHawkeye: folds
dna danny: calls 20
HELPDESKFTW: calls 20
bd2814: calls 20
oJUSTMEo: calls 20
xCRAPSHOOTx: raises 180 to 200
L4M3R1: folds
muck'n mama: folds
dna danny: calls 180
HELPDESKFTW: raises 300 to 500
bd2814: folds
oJUSTMEo: folds
xCRAPSHOOTx: calls 300
dna danny: folds
*** FLOP *** [4c Ks Jd]
xCRAPSHOOTx: checks
HELPDESKFTW: bets 250
xCRAPSHOOTx: calls 250
*** TURN *** [4c Ks Jd] [3s]
xCRAPSHOOTx: checks
HELPDESKFTW: bets 1010 and is all-in
xCRAPSHOOTx: calls 910 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [4c Ks Jd 3s] [Ts]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
xCRAPSHOOTx: shows [Qd Ad] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
HELPDESKFTW: shows [8c Ac] (high card Ace)
xCRAPSHOOTx collected 3600 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3600 | Rake 0
Board [4c Ks Jd 3s Ts]
Seat 1: zrwill07 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: LEHawkeye folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: dna danny folded before Flop
Seat 4: HELPDESKFTW showed [8c Ac] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 5: bd2814 folded before Flop
Seat 6: oJUSTMEo (button) folded before Flop
Seat 7: xCRAPSHOOTx (small blind) showed [Qd Ad] and won (3600) with a straight, Ten to Ace
Seat 8: L4M3R1 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: muck'n mama folded before Flop

And then of course in the same tourney, my signiture hand has to show up:

Table '83414067 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: LEHawkeye (2370 in chips)
Seat 3: dna danny (3375 in chips)
Seat 5: bd2814 (1755 in chips)
Seat 7: xCRAPSHOOTx (600 in chips)
Seat 8: L4M3R1 (2870 in chips)
Seat 9: muck'n mama (2530 in chips)
dna danny: posts small blind 25
bd2814: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xCRAPSHOOTx [Kh Kd]
xCRAPSHOOTx: raises 100 to 150
L4M3R1: raises 100 to 250
muck'n mama: folds
LEHawkeye: folds
dna danny: folds
bd2814: folds
xCRAPSHOOTx: raises 350 to 600 and is all-in
L4M3R1: calls 350
*** FLOP *** [Qd 6d Qh]
*** TURN *** [Qd 6d Qh] [3c]
*** RIVER *** [Qd 6d Qh 3c] [9h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
xCRAPSHOOTx: shows [Kh Kd] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
L4M3R1: shows [Ac Ah] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
L4M3R1 collected 1275 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1275 | Rake 0
Board [Qd 6d Qh 3c 9h]
Seat 2: LEHawkeye (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: dna danny (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: bd2814 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: xCRAPSHOOTx showed [Kh Kd] and lost with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 8: L4M3R1 showed [Ac Ah] and won (1275) with two pair, Aces and Queens
Seat 9: muck'n mama folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I was getting killed every time I played KK fast, so I started to slow them down and look for safer hands to play them:

Table '83439865 1' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: xCRAPSHOOTx (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: bskins1804 (1400 in chips)
Seat 3: mirauncorzo (1100 in chips)
Seat 4: dawnangel (800 in chips)
Seat 5: losthigh (1480 in chips)
Seat 6: Goahead03 (2360 in chips)
Seat 7: El_Vatan (1400 in chips)
Seat 8: deltadan (1960 in chips)
Seat 9: BigIrish59 (1500 in chips)
dawnangel: posts small blind 10
losthigh: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xCRAPSHOOTx [Kd Kc]
Goahead03: folds
El_Vatan: calls 20
deltadan: folds
BigIrish59: folds
xCRAPSHOOTx: raises 60 to 80
bskins1804: folds
mirauncorzo: folds
dawnangel: calls 70
losthigh: folds
El_Vatan: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [Jd 7h 3c]
dawnangel: checks
El_Vatan: bets 200
xCRAPSHOOTx: calls 200
dawnangel: calls 200
*** TURN *** [Jd 7h 3c] [8c]
dawnangel: checks
El_Vatan: bets 500
xCRAPSHOOTx: calls 500
dawnangel: raises 20 to 520 and is all-in
El_Vatan: calls 20
xCRAPSHOOTx: calls 20
*** RIVER *** [Jd 7h 3c 8c] [4h]
El_Vatan: checks
xCRAPSHOOTx: bets 300
El_Vatan: calls 300
*** SHOW DOWN ***
xCRAPSHOOTx: shows [Kd Kc] (a pair of Kings)
El_Vatan: shows [Jh 8s] (two pair, Jacks and Eights)
El_Vatan collected 600 from side pot
dawnangel: mucks hand
dawnangel is sitting out
El_Vatan collected 2420 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3020 Main pot 2420. Side pot 600. | Rake 0
Board [Jd 7h 3c 8c 4h]
Seat 1: xCRAPSHOOTx showed [Kd Kc] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 2: bskins1804 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: mirauncorzo (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: dawnangel (small blind) mucked [2s 2c]
Seat 5: losthigh (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Goahead03 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: El_Vatan showed [Jh 8s] and won (3020) with two pair, Jacks and Eights
Seat 8: deltadan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: BigIrish59 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Why do these KK's always have something against CRAPSHOOT, I never did anything to them?

Ok, ignore the donks for the moment. Your comment on the first hand. Ignore the rest of the hand. Think about that. I think you know that if you had played that hand in a less frustrated mood you could have got away from it for less. This just confirms what I said about needing a break. You made a donks dumb play more expensive than it needed to be. If you were back on even keel you'd be pleased to take the odd beat because donks are where the long term profit comes from.

KK. I forget the exact figure for the 9 man tables you've been on, but even AA on a ten man table is only 31.9% and a mere 26.8% for KK. it is only the odd % better on a 9 man table. So don't expect too much from them.

There is never anything wrong with raising with premium hands, but yeah I know what you mean. You raise and get 5 callers. It takes away the point of raising to thin the field. You definitely need a rest, cos when you actually stop raising, you've lost it. Like me today, dumped out in less than 20 mins in every tourney I've been in, every time by crap hands getting lucky after I've trapped them into calling my all in. Today it is only irritating. Other days I would have been spitting blood. The difference? I had a bit of a rest recently. No doubt spitting blood days will return sometime, but then I will take another break.

well dog if ur going to play AA or KK there is only one way to play them and that is all-in...you have to be heads up otherwise your strong favorite can become a dog and you basically only have 2 outs. I was just in a game where a donk limped in with AA for 20 chips...in the long run he will get killed that way...I went all-in with 88 and flopped an 8 but lucky for him he river'd another Ace...but he better not be counting on always catching with 2 outs. With a lot of players in a pot there are a lot of ways to beat AA and only a few ways to improve them.

I was also in another game and a donk kept going all-in on me everytime I had the BB finally I had enough of that shit and called with AQ...he showed A3 off...lol...of course he hit his 3.

How about this hand...99 is a lay down here...but the phucken donks will stay in with any bets if they have pp:

Table '83556392 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: kitten604 (2040 in chips)
Seat 2: MISS PLORK (1490 in chips)
Seat 3: as15827 (1450 in chips)
Seat 4: 54321kaboom (1460 in chips)
Seat 5: xCRAPSHOOTx (920 in chips)
Seat 6: Opi001 (1480 in chips)
Seat 7: pool2440 (1480 in chips)
Seat 9: rebel1100 (3180 in chips)
Opi001: posts small blind 10
pool2440: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xCRAPSHOOTx [Ks Td]
rebel1100: calls 20
kitten604: calls 20
MISS PLORK: folds
as15827: folds
54321kaboom: calls 20
xCRAPSHOOTx: calls 20
Opi001: calls 10
pool2440: checks
*** FLOP *** [Jc Kh Kc]
Opi001: bets 80
pool2440: folds
rebel1100: calls 80
kitten604: folds
54321kaboom: folds
xCRAPSHOOTx: calls 80
*** TURN *** [Jc Kh Kc] [Qd]
Opi001: checks
rebel1100: checks
xCRAPSHOOTx: bets 120
Opi001: folds
rebel1100: calls 120
*** RIVER *** [Jc Kh Kc Qd] [3s]
rebel1100: checks
xCRAPSHOOTx: bets 200
rebel1100: calls 200
*** SHOW DOWN ***
xCRAPSHOOTx: shows [Ks Td] (three of a kind, Kings)
rebel1100: shows [9s 9d] (two pair, Kings and Nines)
xCRAPSHOOTx collected 1000 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1000 | Rake 0
Board [Jc Kh Kc Qd 3s]
Seat 1: kitten604 folded on the Flop
Seat 2: MISS PLORK folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: as15827 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: 54321kaboom folded on the Flop
Seat 5: xCRAPSHOOTx (button) showed [Ks Td] and won (1000) with three of a kind, Kings
Seat 6: Opi001 (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 7: pool2440 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: rebel1100 showed [9s 9d] and lost with two pair, Kings and Nines

An isolation strong pre-flop bet and I would have tossed in!

Allin eh?

Giving information away is the worst thing you can do. Going allin when you are not short stacked just tells all but the idiots that folding is almost mandatory and your big hand is wasted.

You never see it except in freerolls and micro buy-ins. Why is that? Because freerolls and micro buy ins is where you get people who in general prefer a mindless gamble to control. Watch the Poker After Dark series. The top and most famous players in the business. They never do it. Don't you think there is a reason for that, such as it ain't a good idea?

The other reason for not going allin is, unless you want all fold preflop, you are presumably wanting callers to pay you off? But that is not consistent with the desire to force people out. You can't have it both ways (but idiots might give that). They are not compatible. So having got your callers and a dodgy looking board you have no way out. In other words you have commited the second big crime of poker, you have lost control.

"I was just in a game where a donk limped in with AA for 20 chips...in the long run he will get killed that way". If AA gets callers it will get beaten the same % of the time regardless of how it is bet. If you want to be paid off, you want callers, if you want callers then you need insurance, like not being pot committed if it goes wrong. If you want all fold, you have no way of forcing all fold, not even by allin. So you must presume there will be callers whatever you do and therefore try to both minimise the losses whilst maximising the winnings.

So, allin gives away too much information and loses control.