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Go Back   Poker Forums > Texas Hold Em Rooms > Playing Online

Opinions about Rigged Sites

Playing Online

View Poll Results: Do you think online Poker is rigged?
No absolutely 100% not rigged. 8 50.00%
Yes, I think that it is more than we know. 3 18.75%
YES!! its rigged against me specifically. 3 18.75%
Don't care. I only play small games anyway. 3 18.75%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-20-2008, 04:04 AM
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Also, I am a depositing player at Pokerstars, AND THEY DO NOT FAVOR ME!!! I get knocked out by 7 2 off by players with white stars on their heads more than anything! lol . And if they were going to favor anyone, it would be non depositers, so that they would be encouraged to play for real money, and that would build up the base of real players, and pokers stars bankroll.
  
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Old 01-20-2008, 09:32 PM
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Examples like the Absolute Poker scandal suggest that rigged poker is more likely than anyone thinks; the owners of the poker sites may not be at the front of the operation, but there is reason to be concerned. The most you can do is save your hand histories
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Old 01-20-2008, 10:57 PM
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There has to be cheaters out there. I know there has to be someway to hack the RNG if you play enough hands. I believe those RNG snchronizing programs work, the theory behind it makes sense to me. It is scary thinking about it and im sure it exists(cheating). Thats why I like playing the private tours as there is honest players, not cheats!
  
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Old 01-21-2008, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SneakyCastro View Post
There has to be cheaters out there. I know there has to be someway to hack the RNG if you play enough hands. I believe those RNG snchronizing programs work, the theory behind it makes sense to me. It is scary thinking about it and im sure it exists(cheating). Thats why I like playing the private tours as there is honest players, not cheats!
For the benefit of newcomers, let me repeat this. The RNG is not the point one would hack into a poker program. The standard software method of simulating any card game to construct the equivalent of a deck which you then subject to random shuffling. Once the shuffling is done, the deck order is fixed, just as with a real deck. All that is then needed is access to the deck to view the cards. It is the software equivalent of a marked deck.

Similarly, seeing others cards is totally un-necessary as you see the cards before they are dealt so you already know where they are going.

So, the RNG has been audited by independent auditors and is uncrackable. So what? That is not the weak link. No hacker would ever touch it.

No bent poker site would do that either as it is far simpler to take the shuffled deck and when a particular card is needed, provided it is not already played, deal it out of sequence. Think of it as dealing seconds or thirds but from any position (seconds = second card down, ask any card manipulator/magician/whatever).

Even if the poker software does it the hard way and generates each card one at a time rather than simulating a real shufled deck, all you need is access to the point in the software where the information is held for hand evaluation at the showdown. You simply look at information which is already known to the software. Again, there is no need to mess around with the RNG. Again no audit of the RNG will ever find this, simply because you are operating after the RNG has been used.

The latter scenario is marginally more secure because the hacker only sees the dealt cards and not the whole deck and so cannot predict the next card(s).

Of course getting access and masking the existence of that access from auditors is a whole different ball game. But if you can manage that, then the above is what you do.

And no, I've never done it, but having created card game simulations, having seen other examples in the standard software text books, it is obvious to me where the weak points are.
  
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Old 01-21-2008, 03:28 AM
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RacingDog you beat me to it.

Every secure system has a weak point, and for every one of those weak points there is someone out there with the skill, knowledge and determination to exploit it.

Think of it along the same lines as wall-hacks and auto head shots in CounterStrike and other online games, and anyone who's had any experience in online gaming knows how rampant they run. The only difference is that if you get caught in CS you only get hated on, if you get nailed in poker then you might end up in jail.

But it wouldn't surprise me at all how common it would be. As RD said all you'd need would be the ability to see the deck, or see cards as they're generated, and you're home and hosed. I've been pondering playing for real money but the possibility of cheaters just seems too likely to take the risk...
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:52 AM
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This is just all so very interesting and now it makes me very very curious as to what is really going out there in the online poker sites. All this information on RNG (random number generators) has sparked my curiosity...I only say this because if you have ever played keno, its like the same thing..you can actually pick out what numbers are going to hit and they do..3-4 times in a row! I have always been very VERY lucky at playing keno (playing only 4 spots at 2$ to 5$ a bet)..simply because I know what numbers will hit again and again..even though its "random"...go figure.

Incase anyone doesnt know this yet..there is a movie being released about the MIT team that played vegas a while back and were counting cards at the BJ tables...should be pretty good!
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:26 AM
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because if you have ever played keno, its like the same thing..you can actually pick out what numbers are going to hit and they do..3-4 times in a row!
Glad it works out for you but it is all in your head. You don't play Keno which uses any kind of computer software, you play the "live" games which use a lottery type machine and ping pong balls.
  
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Old 01-21-2008, 06:19 AM
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Glad it works out for you but it is all in your head. You don't play Keno which uses any kind of computer software, you play the "live" games which use a lottery type machine and ping pong balls.
Actually one of them is a computered generated game. If you actually studied the two boards side by side you will see the numbers (not all) on the blue screen will be on the red screen but opposite ends and when the red board's numbers come up they will be on opposite ends of blues. Red is computer generated.

Its the numbers I am fascinated with..and the way they come up..Sometimes I will go up and ask them for a frequency ticket for the last 20 games to see whats been coming up and what hasnt. Whether its all in my head or not..the bottom line is I do win alot.
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Old 01-21-2008, 10:41 AM
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Any truly RNG should provide an even spread over it's range given enough runs. Like rolling a dice - in theory if you roll it enough, each number will come up 1/6th of the time. If you try to guess the rolls you'll find that you get it right now and then and you'll suffer a case of 'the van is always on the corner' syndrome - you remember the times you get it right, and don't pay attention when you get it wrong so it seems like you're guessing correctly really often.

How random the RNG's used in computerised gambling are anyone's guess, and I spose we'll never know. Software RNG's are never truly random since they use a set algorithm, and if you can see it then you could create some level of predictability... But it would be easier to try and exploit the software to show the deck or hole cards, and that's what cheaters are more likely to be focussing on.
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Old 01-22-2008, 01:12 AM
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How random the RNG's used in computerised gambling are anyone's guess, and I spose we'll never know. Software RNG's are never truly random since they use a set algorithm, and if you can see it then you could create some level of predictability... But it would be easier to try and exploit the software to show the deck or hole cards, and that's what cheaters are more likely to be focussing on.
That's why sites are required to use a hardware-based RNG. Instead of having something simple like (Seed) % 193 * pi + 8 * 1000.001 (where "seed" is the last created random number), they use input including (but not limited to) the average temperature around it, how many particles of light hit it in the past x milliseconds, and then they even run it through a RNG algorithm.

If you don't know the seed (and with a hardware-based system, you never do), you can't predict the next number.
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