Someone Please talk me down off this ledge

Hey Franky was this aggressive enough for you?

PokerStars Game #2580966064: Tournament #12589360, Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2005/09/15 - 11:34:01 (ET)
Table '12589360 2' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: Pr0teus2k (4380 in chips)
Seat 4: TheDesparado (11855 in chips)
Seat 5: iriraz (8560 in chips)
Seat 6: BSQUAD2001 (4670 in chips)
Seat 7: steveo730 (4510 in chips)
Pr0teus2k: posts the ante 25
TheDesparado: posts the ante 25
iriraz: posts the ante 25
BSQUAD2001: posts the ante 25
steveo730: posts the ante 25
iriraz: posts small blind 100
BSQUAD2001: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BSQUAD2001 [2h 5s]
steveo730: folds
iriraz said, "do you play in the wcoop?"
Pr0teus2k: folds
TheDesparado: folds
iriraz: calls 100
TheDesparado said, "Hahah no I wish"
BSQUAD2001: checks
*** FLOP *** [5d Tc 2s]
iriraz: bets 800
TheDesparado said, "Do you?"
BSQUAD2001: raises 3645 to 4445 and is all-in
iriraz: calls 3645
iriraz said, "ouch"
TheDesparado said, "I just started playing about 2 weeks ago"
*** TURN *** [5d Tc 2s] [Ac]
TheDesparado said, "uh oh"
iriraz said, "yes"
*** RIVER *** [5d Tc 2s Ac] [9h]
TheDesparado said, "hahahaha"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
iriraz: shows [Ts As] (two pair, Aces and Tens)
BSQUAD2001: shows [2h 5s] (two pair, Fives and Deuces)
iriraz collected 9415 from pot
iriraz said, "phew"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9415 | Rake 0
Board [5d Tc 2s Ac 9h]
Seat 2: Pr0teus2k folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: TheDesparado (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: iriraz (small blind) showed [Ts As] and won (9415) with two pair, Aces and Tens
Seat 6: BSQUAD2001 (big blind) showed [2h 5s] and lost with two pair, Fives and Deuces
Seat 7: steveo730 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I think that play is fine....as a matter of fact I think it is a good play, just got outdrawn........Put aside the end result and look at the hand......You got the guy to put all his chips in with 5 outs.......So he had about a 20% chance on the flop ( 4 to 1 dog)...What else were your options?
1)Fold? no
2)Call? Sure, but when he went all in when the ace came on the turn would you have folded? no, I doubt it.
3) Min Raise? He would have re-raised all in with top pair, top kicker and even if he didnt all the chips were going in on the turn....

This was just one of those things but it illustrates how vulnerable bottom 2 pair can be......

I know it is frustrating but this was absolutely the right play if you ask me.

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Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.

OK, how about this one. Aggressive enough?

PokerStars Game #2581233383: Tournament #12591159, Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2005/09/15 - 12:41:02 (ET)
Table '12591159 5' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Cincy_Bill (5440 in chips)
Seat 2: Simba04 (2030 in chips)
Seat 3: THEPIPEMAN (5080 in chips)
Seat 4: BigTymeTk (1690 in chips)
Seat 5: fatherbarrel (6218 in chips)
Seat 6: Colven1 (800 in chips)
Seat 7: BSQUAD2001 (1920 in chips)
Seat 8: oonec44 (270 in chips)
Seat 9: jr1550 (3930 in chips)
THEPIPEMAN: posts small blind 75
BigTymeTk: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BSQUAD2001 [As 5s]
fatherbarrel: folds
Colven1: folds
BSQUAD2001: calls 150
oonec44: raises 120 to 270 and is all-in
jr1550: folds
Cincy_Bill: folds
Simba04: folds
THEPIPEMAN: calls 195
BigTymeTk: folds
BSQUAD2001: calls 120
*** FLOP *** [Jd 9s 3s]
THEPIPEMAN: checks
BSQUAD2001: bets 300
THEPIPEMAN: raises 300 to 600
BSQUAD2001: raises 300 to 900
THEPIPEMAN: raises 1200 to 2100
BSQUAD2001: calls 750 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Jd 9s 3s] [Kh]
*** RIVER *** [Jd 9s 3s Kh] [4h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
THEPIPEMAN: shows [Qc Th] (a straight, Nine to King)
BSQUAD2001: shows [As 5s] (high card Ace)
THEPIPEMAN collected 3300 from side pot
oonec44: shows [9d Ah] (a pair of Nines)
THEPIPEMAN collected 960 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4260 Main pot 960. Side pot 3300. | Rake 0
Board [Jd 9s 3s Kh 4h]
Seat 1: Cincy_Bill folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Simba04 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: THEPIPEMAN (small blind) showed [Qc Th] and won (4260) with a straight, Nine to King
Seat 4: BigTymeTk (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: fatherbarrel folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Colven1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: BSQUAD2001 showed [As 5s] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 8: oonec44 showed [9d Ah] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 9: jr1550 folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Now granted i was on a draw. But so was he. So in reality didnt I make the right decision knowing my draw had more outs than his?

Well, making a correct decision and making the best decision can be different things sometimes..

I think you made the correct decision ultimately if you want to play aggressive but you went about it in the wrong way I think ( and again, this is just MY opinion, I am certainly prone to make mistakes myself).

Would it have been okay to go all in on the flop with a nut flush draw? Sure. But part of the reason why you would go all in would be to increase your fold equity ( aka, the money you could win by causing the other player to fold) So, if you push from the start on the flop, now Pipeman has a very hard decision to make and he only has 2 options...and that is to call or fold.

Now, since you led out with that weak bet, he decided to take a stab and re-raise hoping to show strenght and get you to fold (granted, it was a very bad play by him with that min-raise crap but that is another story). Then you made a play I really dont understand...Why did you raise the minimum here? The pot was already to large for him to fold so this raise made no sense. At that point he figured to be pot committed on the hand so he just pushed in last ditch effort that you would fold...I dont think this was played well by either player to be honest.

So back to what I said. Dont you think it would be better to have went all in off the bat and give him a chance to fold? Especially since you had to be telling yourself that you were going to call an all in bet anyway? By playing the minimum raise game you completely gave away your fold equity. I said this before and i will say it again...Minimum Raises are complete garbage...RAISE WITH A PURPOSE !!!!!


EDIT: But, it is hard to give the VERY BEST play without knowing the player you are up against. That is often the most important information but also the hardest information to process and simulate.

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Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.

The reason i made the minimum raise was based on observation. This player would commonly make a minimum raise to see his opponents strength. Sometimes he would just get a "call" and then he would go into an aggressive play depending on his opponent. Sometimes the timid players would fold to his minimum raise. But when he was re-raised he generally would leave the pot. When he had monsters he bet them big. The minimum raise showed me weakness. I had hoped that a minimum re-raise would take me the pot right there without jeopordizing too many of my remaining chips. He had normally bowed out in the past hands when he was reraised. Even when he pushed all-in I knew he was drawing. I could of left the pot but I would of been crippled.

That is my point....if he often folded to weakness then give him a bet to fold to....he was priced to call your min raise no matter what he had really so all you did was commit more chips to a pot with a draw and gave yourself no chance to win the pot without hitting your flush. You said you made that small raise because you COULD of left the pot but you would have been crippled...We both know that although you COULD have folded, you werent going to....not with 1250 of your 2k committed ( if you did it would have been a TERRIBLE play)...so knowing that...why not push, especially since you thought, and were correct, that he was weak?

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Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.

I guess I was relying too much on previous plays on his part. The re-raises, even minimum ones, made him fold. You are right though, I should of pushed with them all.

Here is another little trick that I use that seems to work sometimes.....It is based on the fact that people will often call ( in low limits anyway) out of curiosity, even if they have a hand they know is beat, but they REALLLLy want to see what you have.

Because the player with 130 went all in, Pipeman new that he was going to see your cards anyway so he could satisfy his curiosity for free. That should make him less inclined to call.....I have no evidence that this works, but it seems to be effective.

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Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.