OK how do you play this

05-13-2008, 11:26 AM

Post Number: 1 (Link This Post)

Report this post!

CRAPSHOOT

Royal Flush

Approved

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 2,949

Shouts:

Credits: 33088.33

OK how do you play this

Many of you have said that I risk too much going all-in pre-flop with KK, someone calling most likely will have a strong Ace and an ace might flop, in that case you can fold to a strong bet. It makes sense, but I do want to isolate with KK, so I figured that I would wait for the flop before I would push them out with a safe flop and this is what happened:

PokerStars Game #17396619789: Tournament #87724846, $30+$3 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2008/05/13 - 06:08:47 (ET)
Table '87724846 4' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: NorthugJr (1460 in chips)
Seat 2: jutho (5110 in chips)
Seat 3: xCRAPSHOOTx (3560 in chips)
Seat 4: belinda508 (1450 in chips)
Seat 5: hdmike13 (1470 in chips)
Seat 6: wonniem (1415 in chips)
Seat 7: nehgro69 (1550 in chips)
Seat 8: kinheim (1470 in chips)
Seat 9: araonly (1125 in chips)
araonly: posts small blind 10
NorthugJr: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xCRAPSHOOTx [Kd Kh]
jutho: folds
xCRAPSHOOTx: raises 40 to 60
belinda508: raises 100 to 160
hdmike13: folds
wonniem: folds
nehgro69: folds
kinheim: folds
araonly: folds
NorthugJr: folds
xCRAPSHOOTx: raises 340 to 500
belinda508: calls 340
*** FLOP *** [7h Td Qh]
xCRAPSHOOTx: bets 3060 and is all-in
belinda508: calls 950 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (2110) returned to xCRAPSHOOTx
*** TURN *** [7h Td Qh] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [7h Td Qh Ts] [7d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
xCRAPSHOOTx: shows [Kd Kh] (two pair, Kings and Tens)
belinda508: shows [Qs Qd] (a full house, Queens full of Tens)
belinda508 collected 2930 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2930 | Rake 0
Board [7h Td Qh Ts 7d]
Seat 1: NorthugJr (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: jutho folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: xCRAPSHOOTx showed [Kd Kh] and lost with two pair, Kings and Tens
Seat 4: belinda508 showed [Qs Qd] and won (2930) with a full house, Queens full of Tens
Seat 5: hdmike13 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: wonniem folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: nehgro69 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: kinheim (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: araonly (small blind) folded before Flop

KK's are just not my pockets!

Last edited by CRAPSHOOT; 05-13-2008 at 11:29 AM.

05-13-2008, 11:44 AM

Post Number: 2 (Link This Post)

Report this post!

CRAPSHOOT

Royal Flush

Approved

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 2,949

Shouts:

Credits: 33088.33

And then I come up with this hand:

PokerStars Game #17396737882: Tournament #87724846, $30+$3 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/05/13 - 06:22:55 (ET)
Table '87724846 4' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: NorthugJr (1685 in chips)
Seat 2: jutho (2480 in chips)
Seat 3: xCRAPSHOOTx (1775 in chips)
Seat 4: belinda508 (2670 in chips)
Seat 5: hdmike13 (2735 in chips)
Seat 6: pizzayolo (1485 in chips)
Seat 7: nehgro69 (4490 in chips)
Seat 8: muelm (2540 in chips)
Seat 9: araonly (780 in chips)
jutho: posts small blind 15
xCRAPSHOOTx: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xCRAPSHOOTx [As Th]
belinda508: folds
hdmike13: folds
pizzayolo: calls 30
nehgro69: folds
muelm: folds
araonly: raises 150 to 180
NorthugJr: folds
jutho: calls 165
xCRAPSHOOTx: calls 150
pizzayolo: calls 150
*** FLOP *** [4d Ad Ah]
jutho: checks
xCRAPSHOOTx: checks
pizzayolo: bets 90
araonly: calls 90
jutho: folds
xCRAPSHOOTx: calls 90
*** TURN *** [4d Ad Ah] [5s]
xCRAPSHOOTx: checks
pizzayolo: bets 150
araonly: raises 360 to 510 and is all-in
xCRAPSHOOTx: raises 995 to 1505 and is all-in
pizzayolo: folds
Uncalled bet (995) returned to xCRAPSHOOTx
*** RIVER *** [4d Ad Ah 5s] [9c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
xCRAPSHOOTx: shows [As Th] (three of a kind, Aces)
araonly: shows [Ac Kd] (three of a kind, Aces - King kicker)
araonly collected 2160 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2160 | Rake 0
Board [4d Ad Ah 5s 9c]
Seat 1: NorthugJr (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: jutho (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: xCRAPSHOOTx (big blind) showed [As Th] and lost with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 4: belinda508 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: hdmike13 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: pizzayolo folded on the Turn
Seat 7: nehgro69 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: muelm folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: araonly showed [Ac Kd] and won (2160) with three of a kind, Aces

05-13-2008, 11:55 AM

Post Number: 3 (Link This Post)

Report this post!

CRAPSHOOT

Royal Flush

Approved

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 2,949

Shouts:

Credits: 33088.33

So then I try this way:

PokerStars Game #17396997542: Tournament #87724846, $30+$3 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2008/05/13 - 06:53:09 (ET)
Table '87724846 15' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: assomat (2750 in chips)
Seat 3: chicka888 (4110 in chips)
Seat 4: alohascott1 (825 in chips)
Seat 5: chris280384 (1560 in chips)
Seat 6: ballys1 (3400 in chips)
Seat 7: xCRAPSHOOTx (3590 in chips)
Seat 8: cappman (1965 in chips)
Seat 9: petemarino (4680 in chips)
chris280384: posts small blind 50
ballys1: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xCRAPSHOOTx [Ks Kd]
xCRAPSHOOTx: raises 200 to 300
cappman: folds
petemarino: calls 300
assomat: folds
chicka888: calls 300
alohascott1: raises 525 to 825 and is all-in
chris280384: folds
ballys1: folds
xCRAPSHOOTx: raises 2765 to 3590 and is all-in
petemarino: folds
chicka888: folds
Uncalled bet (2765) returned to xCRAPSHOOTx
*** FLOP *** [5h Ts 6d]
*** TURN *** [5h Ts 6d] [Jd]
belinda508 is connected
*** RIVER *** [5h Ts 6d Jd] [3d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
xCRAPSHOOTx: shows [Ks Kd] (a pair of Kings)
alohascott1: shows [Td Th] (three of a kind, Tens)
alohascott1 collected 2400 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2400 | Rake 0
Board [5h Ts 6d Jd 3d]
Seat 2: assomat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: chicka888 folded before Flop
Seat 4: alohascott1 (button) showed [Td Th] and won (2400) with three of a kind, Tens
Seat 5: chris280384 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: ballys1 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: xCRAPSHOOTx showed [Ks Kd] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 8: cappman folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: petemarino folded before Flop

I decided to re-raise the all-in to keep any weak Aces out or at least have a shot at the other two players for anything over the all-in.

It's just pathetic with these fucken KK's

Last edited by CRAPSHOOT; 05-13-2008 at 12:04 PM.

05-13-2008, 01:34 PM

Post Number: 4 (Link This Post)

Report this post!

FinK22

Common Sense

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Common Sense

Posts: 3,485

Shouts:

Credits: 33527.315

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRAPSHOOT

And then I come up with this hand:

jutho: posts small blind 15
xCRAPSHOOTx: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xCRAPSHOOTx [As Th]
belinda508: folds
hdmike13: folds
pizzayolo: calls 30
nehgro69: folds
muelm: folds
araonly: raises 150 to 180
NorthugJr: folds
jutho: calls 165
xCRAPSHOOTx: calls 150
pizzayolo: calls 150

Why are you calling here with AT?

05-13-2008, 03:11 PM

Post Number: 5 (Link This Post)

Report this post!

CRAPSHOOT

Royal Flush

Approved

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 2,949

Shouts:

Credits: 33088.33

Quote:

Originally Posted by FinK22

Why are you calling here with AT?

What, why not, I was BB...I'm not gonna run from a 150 raise with a medium Ace....LOL, I might flop trips.

Last edited by CRAPSHOOT; 05-13-2008 at 03:17 PM.

05-13-2008, 05:20 PM

Post Number: 6 (Link This Post)

Report this post!

k06mars

Job

Approved

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: Loudonville

Posts: 2,903

Shouts:

Credits: 13448.395

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRAPSHOOT

What, why not, I was BB...I'm not gonna run from a 150 raise with a medium Ace....LOL, I might flop trips.

Using that mentality will cost you chips in the long run. Did you ever think that maybe your opponent could hold a stronger ace than you, and with position, has a very large edge over you?

Let's put villain on a top 40 (about 20%) - his range includes:
66+,A4s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

Running it through PokerStove, you have a 51.65% chance of winning against those hands. The problem is, there are also a lot of hands included there where you'll simply win by high-card. Do you really think you'll hold onto your AT when you completely miss the flop and your opponent bets with air as well? Of course not, because you don't know that he missed.

Even if you were considered all-in at this point, you can't justify a call. In a cash game, you'll lose to the rake. In a tournament, you can't call as it's too risky a move - winning this hand would not double your tournament equity - at best, you might increase it by 90%. That may seem like a lot, but being that you will lose approximately half the time as well (-100%), you end up losing 10% of tournament equity with each call as well.

__________________
1st place, March/April 2008 Sunday League

Intelligence, lack thereof: Causing insanity to those with.

05-13-2008, 10:28 PM

Post Number: 7 (Link This Post)

Report this post!

gimmemymoneyback

Straight

Approved

Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 368

Shouts:

Credits: 3885.28

Terrible beats crapshoot You played everyone of these hands perfect only to get screwed in all but 1 and coolered in that 1. If you could only get those KK's to hold up. Dam just awful, it will turn and when it does these fish won't be laughing anymore with there 23s and 47s, they will be sent to the rail and making another deposit.

05-13-2008, 11:16 PM

Post Number: 8 (Link This Post)

Report this post!

CRAPSHOOT

Royal Flush

Approved

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 2,949

Shouts:

Credits: 33088.33

Quote:

Originally Posted by k06mars

No mars, I am not going to look for the biggest rock to hide under for a 150 raise. Cards are important to you, not to me...No.1 I play the player not the cards, if I thought that I could outplay my opponent here...hell I would call the 150 raise with 42o and I would be a fool not to...if I could outplay him. In NLHE many times cards are just confidence builders as in the majority of hands, cards are never even shown. Should you pay attention to your cards...you would be a fool not to...does that mean you run from a bet when you don't have much...absolutely not, you re-raise him if you think you can outplay him. What is important to me is...my opponents cards....the board cards...prior play in the hand...prior play from my opponent in the game, especially against me.

Waiting for the nuts...waiting for the luck of the cards in your favor...running from raises...waiting for the right time, when your opponent doesn't raise and you feel that you have the best hand...well that is what is going to cost you a lot money, because that right situation will be far and few in between and when it does arise you might make next to nothing for your long wait. Talk about starting hands, I know what good starting hands are...do I use them?...sometimes and sometimes not...the situation dictates my game. Seeing that we are talking about starting hands, I just started loading Poker Tracker, I only have 106,000 hands logged...now my most profitable hand is what?...a hand that you would laugh at if I bet it strong...it's 88, my next is K9s followed by Q4s, next is AKo...now other than the AKo my next strongest Ace kicker is a 5 offsuit followed by a 4 suited...none of these are impressive starting hands and some are downright laughable, but they made me the most chips. My biggest loser KQ suited..a group II starting hand according to David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth. So you see NLHE is not starting hands...NLHE is play against the opponent.

Last edited by CRAPSHOOT; 05-13-2008 at 11:23 PM.

05-14-2008, 12:12 AM

Post Number: 9 (Link This Post)

Report this post!

k06mars

Job

Approved

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: Loudonville

Posts: 2,903

Shouts:

Credits: 13448.395

That may be so - however, you are forgetting the key piece of information that you have ZERO position on your opponent here - meaning, not only can you lose by not having the best hand, but also because your opponent will likely put in a continuation bet on any flop that doesn't look terribly dangerous.

As it is, you lost - if you were truly outplaying your opponent, I believe you would have realized by his reraise on the turn showed that he was going to stick around, and that he had you beat.

__________________
1st place, March/April 2008 Sunday League

Intelligence, lack thereof: Causing insanity to those with.

Sponsored Link - Register now and become a THF member and this ad will be removed!

05-14-2008, 09:38 AM

Post Number: 10 (Link This Post)

Report this post!

CRAPSHOOT

Royal Flush

Approved

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 2,949

Shouts:

Credits: 33088.33

Quote:

Originally Posted by k06mars

Fine I'm a sucker for tripp Aces...and when I have tripp Aces,outplaying my opponent is gone the only outplaying is keeping him in and getting the pot size increased. Now yes you can say that he could have what he had against what I had...but the fact is that the frequency of occurrences of the two hands is rare and I will always play the dominant occurrence of a tripp Ace hand. Winning or losing one hand is not important...what is important is what happens in most cases and then the wins will more than make up for the kosses. You can play it safe but then you always have to play it safe which will greatly decrease the over all chips taken down...in that case it is better to lose a hand once in a while.

Shit will happen, but I will still play what appears to be the winning hand, just as in this case that just happened:

PokerStars Game #17418994335: Tournament #88300157, $11+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2008/05/14 - 04:51:56 (ET)
Table '88300157 7' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: MarGee1 (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: hotdog1984 (1490 in chips)
Seat 3: penny455 (1460 in chips)
Seat 4: xCRAPSHOOTx (1470 in chips)
Seat 5: giank-ev (1530 in chips)
Seat 6: Capone1983 (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: Beer82 (1480 in chips)
Seat 8: survival-2 (1540 in chips)
Seat 9: snatcher87 (1530 in chips)
giank-ev: posts small blind 10
Capone1983: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xCRAPSHOOTx [4h Ac]
Beer82: folds
survival-2: raises 60 to 80
snatcher87: folds
MarGee1: folds
hotdog1984: folds
penny455: calls 80
xCRAPSHOOTx: calls 80
giank-ev: folds
Capone1983: folds
*** FLOP *** [4d 4s Jc]
survival-2: bets 60
penny455: calls 60
xCRAPSHOOTx: calls 60
*** TURN *** [4d 4s Jc] [3s]
survival-2: checks
penny455: checks
xCRAPSHOOTx: bets 100
survival-2: folds
penny455: calls 100
*** RIVER *** [4d 4s Jc 3s] [Qc]
penny455: bets 240
xCRAPSHOOTx: raises 280 to 520
penny455: raises 700 to 1220 and is all-in
xCRAPSHOOTx: calls 700
*** SHOW DOWN ***
penny455: shows [Js Jh] (a full house, Jacks full of Fours)
xCRAPSHOOTx: shows [4h Ac] (three of a kind, Fours)
penny455 collected 3090 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3090 | Rake 0
Board [4d 4s Jc 3s Qc]
Seat 1: MarGee1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: hotdog1984 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: penny455 showed [Js Jh] and won (3090) with a full house, Jacks full of Fours
Seat 4: xCRAPSHOOTx (button) showed [4h Ac] and lost with three of a kind, Fours
Seat 5: giank-ev (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Capone1983 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: Beer82 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: survival-2 folded on the Turn
Seat 9: snatcher87 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Again, you can say why in the world did I call pre-flop and I thought about folding a long time before calling...you never know, maybe I will flop tripps and as you can see from my PT...A4 is high on my list of winners...more so than AA, AQ, AJ, AT, KK, KQ, KJ, QQ, JJ, TT etc. etc.

You can come back at me when I lose a hand and say..."what happened, you didn't outplay your opponent"...well the fact is that I don't try to outplay my opponent on every hand, sometimes I play my cards and I can honestly say that I lose many more hands when I play my cards. Now on the same token I can say to you on your losing hands when you entered the pot "what happened, didn't you play your cards". Whether you realize it or not, you don't win every hand that you enter, even though you are playing your cards and I don't win every hand that I play even though I am playing my opponent.

Last edited by CRAPSHOOT; 05-14-2008 at 12:41 PM.

OK how do you play this

Hand Histories