This limit hand sucked bad - 2 tables left in MTT

PokerStars Game #6507664391: Tournament #32891584, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em Limit - Level XIII (2000/4000) - 2006/10/03 - 17:32:50 (ET)
Table '32891584 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 3: Scottishben (45771 in chips)
Seat 5: Howie Junk (30301 in chips)
Seat 6: Jovano42 (5794 in chips)
Seat 7: scouse21 (41437 in chips)
Seat 8: BigBMan29 (25571 in chips)
Seat 9: BrandoG (42353 in chips)
scouse21: posts small blind 1000
BigBMan29: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Scottishben [Qd Qh]
BrandoG: folds
Scottishben: raises 2000 to 4000
Howie Junk: calls 4000
Jovano42: folds
scouse21: folds
BigBMan29: folds
*** FLOP *** [4h 5h Qs]
Scottishben: checks
Howie Junk: bets 2000
Scottishben: calls 2000
*** TURN *** [4h 5h Qs] [6h]
Scottishben: bets 4000
Howie Junk: calls 4000
*** RIVER *** [4h 5h Qs 6h] [2h]
Scottishben: bets 4000
Howie Junk: raises 4000 to 8000
Scottishben: calls 4000
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Howie Junk: shows [3d 3h] (a straight flush, Deuce to Six)
Scottishben: mucks hand
Howie Junk collected 39000 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 39000 | Rake 0
Board [4h 5h Qs 6h 2h]
Seat 3: Scottishben mucked [Qd Qh]
Seat 5: Howie Junk showed [3d 3h] and won (39000) with a straight flush, Deuce to Six
Seat 6: Jovano42 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: scouse21 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: BigBMan29 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: BrandoG folded before Flop (didn't bet)

2 tables left in this limit game - 500 or so started

win this and clear chip leader this humbled my stack although i lost a good deal more 2 hands later when some chasers caught a runner runner flush and I misread them (i had top pair top kicker) and could have escaped but still would have had a big win to bring me back if it hadnt

I fought back in it - played well but then misplayed 3 difficult hands and was out 11th ce la vie - better play would have given me another final table but without a heart on the river I would have lost 1 single bet to a straight on the river. I dont think he can have known how few outs he had lol

tough one ben, 11th is still good though. whatd you win?

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Current count: 3 Bracelets

My only critique is that you shouldn't have check-called that flop, bad luck all around though, you can't forsee runner runner straight flush.

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Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame.

Checking the flop is fine trying to keep the pot odds down, but once it's bet, you should probably raise.

That and I check fold the river.

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Well, I'm not being critical of your play here. I don't play limit hold em too often for one thing. I do get the point Adaon made about keeping the pot odds down for opponents draws- a raise gives him decent odds to draw and a check-re-raise gives him correct odds to call?- but doesn't your expectancy of winning the hand and the outs you have justify a raise? Can you explain your thinking on this one- I think I'll possibly learn something here

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you have got to love those use one card strait flushes... hang in there you can probably beat the field again

Depending on the limits, I become more then 60% sure he is NOT on the flush draw when he bets the river while in position to take a free card (at $3, I wouldn't expect them to be on a draw, higher stakes, its a good play with a lot of merit). Then he is either on a steal or has a piece of this. If he has a piece of this, he will probably call the hand down, if he has two pair, or a set, he will be eager to get more money in the pot.

If he was on a steal he may fold to the check raise, but then there would not have been much value to it anyhow. The other possibility is he has a straight and flush draw, but that doesn't explain the preflop call, so I'm not too worried about it.

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Thanks Adaon, I think that I mostly follow what your saying here. I suppose it is a case of thinking about cash levels and skill levels.

I see what you mean about him getting a free card. However even at the low levels I play, I find that sometimes a bet on the flop with a flush draw can be profitable since it's often seems very deceptive to less experienced players and you get a good payoff when you hit the nuts. It seems that if you sometimes bet the draw, I think that some players immedaitely discard the fact that you can be on a flush draw. It's lovely of course when you have top pair on the flop and then an A falls on the turn, gives you the flush and gives them the A they've been seeking.
Having said that I don't play limit hold em often and possibly this applies to low buyin No-limit play moreso.

I don't quite get the point about about his preflop call. Maybe it's a buyin level and skill level thing again but it does seem possible to me that he'd make a loose call to a pre-flop raise with say 6h7h?

When you say the above, do you mean:
you check to see what his next move is,
if he checks too then you're not too worried about it..
but if he bets then you are worried about it so a flat call rather than a raise is a better play?

If that is what you meant, then I think I understand why a raise may not be the best move here.

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67h would be a call a no limit player would make, but it's near trash in limit. There is not enough value when the hand hits to pay for all the money you will loose calling a raise. If this were a limp-call from late position you couldn't rule it out, but this is a cold call of a raise.

The most likely holding of a call when someone cold calls a raise at lower limits of hold'em is Ax. Pairs are also likely to make that play (which is why I think one of his hands there would be an under set).

I look at three possibilities here:
1)He has a made hand, and would call me down, or cap it with a set.
2)He is on a bluff, and it's highly unlikely he will invest another bet in the hand.
3)He is on a draw and getting the pot odds to call anyways. But I still make money from additional bets (because there is dead money in the pot).

All three of those reasons lend themselves to raising. The only situation where I loose out is if he hit second or third pair and folds when he would have bet the turn.

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