Am I just to tight.....???

I like others I hope tend to have certain rules that I play by, however this one may well be up for review so all advice welcome....

If I have a mid-low pair I tend to call the blind but bow out if there is a 4 x plus raise pre-flop, now this was at the start of a single seater buy-in can't remember $ probaly $1 or $2 as I'm just easying myself back into NL SNGs at the mo.......

I've been playing a lot of stud h/l..........!!!

So I'll show the hand.....

Stage #358927274 Tourney ID 822607 Holdem Single Tournament No Limit $10 - 2006-03-22 11:52:10 (ET)
Table: 6452026 (Real Money) Seat #6 is the dealer
Seat 1 - DRAGON524 ($1640 in chips)
Seat 2 - BOBILLAR ($1500 in chips)
Seat 3 - ULMERKOTT ($1500 in chips)
Seat 4 - SONNYCHIBA05 ($1500 in chips)
Seat 5 - LAYINLO ($1500 in chips)
Seat 6 - ISHOULDCALL ($1480 in chips)
Seat 7 - GPC17 ($1440 in chips)
Seat 8 - HOOPS1888 ($1500 in chips)
Seat 9 - WINOBULLDOG ($1440 in chips)
GPC17 - Posts small blind $10
HOOPS1888 - Posts big blind $20
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to SONNYCHIBA05 [7s 7c]
WINOBULLDOG - Folds
DRAGON524 - Folds
BOBILLAR - Folds
ULMERKOTT - Folds
SONNYCHIBA05 - Calls $20
LAYINLO - Calls $20
ISHOULDCALL - Raises $120 to $120
GPC17 - Calls $110
HOOPS1888 - Folds
SONNYCHIBA05 - Folds
LAYINLO - Calls $100
*** FLOP *** [Qc 7d 3c]
GPC17 - Bets $40
LAYINLO - Folds
ISHOULDCALL - Calls $40
*** TURN *** [Qc 7d 3c] [7h]
GPC17 - Checks
ISHOULDCALL - Checks
*** RIVER *** [Qc 7d 3c 7h] [Ks]
GPC17 - Checks
ISHOULDCALL - Bets $100
GPC17 - Folds
ISHOULDCALL - returned ($100) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ISHOULDCALL - Does not show
ISHOULDCALL Collects $480 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($480)
Board [Qc 7d 3c 7h Ks]
Seat 1: DRAGON524 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: BOBILLAR Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: ULMERKOTT Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: SONNYCHIBA05 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: LAYINLO Folded on the FLOP
Seat 6: ISHOULDCALL (dealer) collected Total ($480) HI$480) [Does not show]
Seat 7: GPC17 (small blind) Folded on the RIVER
Seat 8: HOOPS1888 (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 9: WINOBULLDOG Folded on the POCKET CARDS

To say I was gutted to see this is just a "slight" understatement, and it did affect the rest of my game......

Now should I change this rule at the start of a tourney or in the latter stages, I don't regard myself as a tight player but I am careful, however is this move a little too careful, or is it just one of them rare times that you hit everycard you need after you have passed......????

All advice welcome...!!

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Snake_Legend........

Listen...Look.....To Late Your Dead......

it was a good fold. More often or not you wouldnt have hit another 7. The raise was just too high for me.

What would you have done if the 7 never came?

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Sonny,

No. I don't think you change your "rule" other than to say you shouldn't have "rules".

Rules by definition "shouldn't" be broken....guidelines on the other hand work to shape the way you play.

So......if your guideline says you prefer to fold low-mid pairs when a big raise comes, I don't think that's incorrect.....in fact, lots of the pros would agree with you. I do think you have to go against your "guideline" when the circumstances dictate, but 1st or 2nd hand into the tournament when you don't know what the other players are going to do??? I'm OK with your fold. I probably would have folded 50% of the time depending on my mood, how the cards had been going for me that day, etc, etc.

Also....note the raiser made a textbook 4XBB plus the amount of the callers type raise and he had button position. Since you don't know his tendancies (will he try and steal with nothing on the button), I again state I have no problem with your fold.

Now let's look at your odds: You were going to have to put in an additional $100 to play for $280 ($380 counting your $100 extra), so you are getting roughly 2.8:1 on the play, but there is still the guy behind you who might call, fold or raise. If you knew he would just call, that's one thing, but you are now sandwiched, so you could have called and he might have re-raised, so i don't think you are getting great odds......unless of course you are looking at the implied odds of flopping your set/quads, but what are the odds of that happening (I can't remember at the moment.)?

I hope you see my point that I think you can argue either way on this scenario and tight is right most of the time.

Also, you CANNOT look at the outcome as part of your analysis....it skews the way you look at it and is irrelevant to whether you played the hand "right" or not. (Plus it will drive you crazy---it does me !!!!!) What if the quads or set had not come up.......would you even be questioning yourself???

Keep pluggin' away,

TZB

Sonny, I try not to let cards that come get to me as far as folding. Once you make the decision to fold, do not second guess it simply because "You would of hit". You cant look at it like that. It was a good fold, and yes it hurt to see 7's come, but that was completey random, as them not coming would have been too.

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f1re A.K.A. PuffMcBud

i would have folded too. thats too large a raise for me to call with 7-7. by the time it got back around to you, there are already 3 people in the pot for that amount. you have to put at least one on a higher pair and all three on over cards. you know higher cards than yours are coming at some point in the hand and with three people in with over cards you have to count on someone hitting. to me this is no different than folding any other marginal hand and realizing by the river that you would have had the nuts. it happens all the time to everybody. thats one reason i like to play 2-3 tables so im not watching the hand play out- id soon not know. im like you when it happens, i start to second guess myself and it affects my play.

Thanks guy's....good to see I'm getting something right....lol

As for the "guidelines" not "rule" comment......I shall now change my termonology to "guidelines" as this is a much fairer assumption of play than having "rules" is, so thanks for that one also....!!

Do not limp first in.

Raise it, or fold it if there is no action before you.

Once you were raised, folding is right. Anything lower then 9s you should not be calling without 5-1 pot odds, and thats if you think you can outplay your oppenent postflop, you want 7-1 to draw for a set.

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well aren't your odds to hit the set 5:1 (roughly)...granted you want to get great pot odds, not odds that give you a fair gamble, but still...If I'm given correct odds (in this case, 5:1), I'll call if it isn't too much of my stack, then hope to outplay my opponent, again if it isn't too much of your stack you can always junk it on the flop.

K06, what is your source for that number?

It's 7.51 to 1 accorind to Mike Caro (poker1.com)

With small pairs you really should be looking for 8-1, but 7-1 is acceptable if you think you can pick up a few when your oppenent misses.

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