Limpers and what to do with them

This is somewhat of a rant, but more of a frustrated newbie poker player lament. I play live cash games and usually with 2,2,3 or 2,2,5 blinds.

I work my best to play TAG. Here is my problem.

Most players limp, every time and fold after a raise preflop or at the flop if they don't hit a hand. Position does not matter! Sometimes they follow to the river.

My frustration is that I throw my rags out, play position, aggressively bet my good hands.

My example is a AK, suited. I bet this in a standard way and the limper follows me all the way to the river. The flop and turn and river do not fill my hand, however the board is a rainbow and low cards. I used a continuation bets to the river. No one raised, but one limper called each time. The limper won with two pair 33/77, with the last 7 on the river.

I guess (this is the rant part) what is really frustrating is the concept any two cards can win. I have had this happen with AA and the limper follows me to the river to get runner - runner and win.

My strategy is to simply play position, cards, betting aggressively, which really reduces the number of hands I play per hour, but risks a larger loss(due to my aggressive betting) with the limper having the luck of the draw.

Any pointers or suggestions as to what I might do?

I think you've touched on the problem already with describing your play compared to theirs... ie they probably know you as a TAG and the kind of hands you like to play. therefore when they play you they play cautiously limping, checking, calling cbets etc.

The best strategy when dealing with a table of a certain type of player is to try and play the opposite type... ie if they're tight and limping lots, you should stop limping along with them and try throwing in a 3bet in certain spots.

The thing with limpy type games is too many players see the flop, and the more people there are in the pot the less likely you are to win the hand. You can scoop a nice big pot when you do but it requires good post flop skills or you flopping a monster or the nuts and getting paid off. now while its perfectly fine calling 4 or more limps preflop with good drawing hands such as suited connectors or pairs, its not such a good idea with the likes of AJos,KJos or lesser type hands because of the increased possibility you are dominated. When you have a strong hand you want to see a flop against as few opponents as possible... you also want to get a bit of info from your opponents as to how good they think they are. Based on what type of player you think they are you can determine a likely range and take it from there. Once you start to do this you'll find the table dynamic starts to change...and you should try to notice how these players try to adapt so you are prepared. (example player 1 limps, hero raises, player 1 goes all in ... here villain likely has a VERY strong hand)

The key to successfull re-raising strategy is not to overdo it, and pick your spots wisely. Its a lot easier to do when you do have {AA-QQ,AK,AQs+} but sometimes you should try it (bluff) with any two cards against loose players... if they've been stealing a lot/running the table over, and your image has generally been pretty tight (you've recently shown down some good hands) they're going to find it pretty difficult to call the right sized re-raise, meaning you can scoop a nice pot... another advantage is should villain offer any kind of resistance to you stealing their money, you can easily get away from the hand and they wont know what you just folded.

Should they call however and you do think you are ahead, then go on and bet... don't slow down post flop when you are the aggressor. a standard cbet of 1/2 to 2/3rd pot will take down most flops... if not and you think you are still ahead on turn (turn bricks) DONT SLOW DOWN...you get my drift. Keep an eye on stack sizes and the kind of odds you are offering villain.

How deep is your knowledge of the game? do you know pot odds, implied odds, commitment threshold, stack to pot ratios etc?

__________________
http://realityrsv.blogspot.co.uk/
Twitter @RealityRSV

tell you what... do you have pokerstars? if not download the client... most of us on here have an account there. happy to give you a match for play money if you like... you can then go through the hands and ask me anything you want. I may not be the worlds best player or anything, but i've played 100,000's of hands and i'll give you my best game. Maybe some of the others would jump in too....

what say all to a friendly play clay ring game and Q+A session?

__________________
http://realityrsv.blogspot.co.uk/
Twitter @RealityRSV

That's reality he's a fkn beast.

My tip?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMT1FLzEn9I
The fish(7letters) can become very tricky if they use this strategy, and God forbid a shark(bambos) would use it. GL

I do try to make changes when playing different opponents.


If I'm playing a tight opponent I dress like this..


If I'm playing a loose opponent I dress like this...


..and this is what I'll wear if I'm trying to play like Gimme..










.

Attached Thumbnails

     

__________________
.










.
"...sometimes I make a chocolate bicycle out of two Wagon Wheels, some chocolate fingers..and I park it in a Toblerone bike rack."

RealityRSV:
First let me thank you for all your time and effort, I really appreciate your insights and your comments. Do you teach?

My game is shallow. I am not as fast with the numbers as I once was(read old dude.) My general play is based on observation and gut feeling.

I generally get into the pot odds/card odds if there is a huge pot, I stand on A high flush, the pot is large, the villain has shoved. I will take the time (time outs) to calculate the play. The table moans when this happens because it delays their game, but I don't care(that took a long time to learn.)

The last two items you mentioned (commitment threshold, stack to pot ratios)I am not familiar with at all(meaning during play.) In many cases my biggest flaw is intellectually understanding the game, but not be able to remember or to act correctly on the concepts I have learned.

As I mention before, the game is for younger people, who think fast on their seats(pun intended), who play many hours more than I do. I average 2 games a month, live casino play, as I cannot afford more than that.
I also go to Las Vegas infrequently.

I played here at Poker Stars a long time ago, then at Full Tilt, but the Fed's shut all the games down, so I not longer play online.

7letters for czar of europe.

right brief expanation of those terms:

commitment threshold - This is the 'point of no return' when the pot becomes 1/4 of the remaining money, and you should learn where it is and think very carefully before crossing it... If possible you should only ever cross the threshold as a favourite to win the hand. This is because the at the CT it will take exactly two pot sized bets to get all in. It can be different vs 2 or more opponents however. Here's a couple examples

(player 1 $200, player 2 $200) - pot is $15, pl 1 bets $15, pl2 calls. [flop] Pot is $45 and CT has been PASSED.... players have $179 left. a pot sized raise + call is $90 ($134 left) pot will be $135 [turn] a pot sized re-raise + call puts players all in.

(players 1,2,3,4 all with $500) raise to $15 and three calls. Pot is $60. [flop] player1 bets $40, player2 calls, you are player3... pot is $140, it cost you $40 to call leaving you with $445 left... you will be crossing the CT.... do you see why?

some rules of thumb*(there will always be a few exceptions to the rules!)... before putting in more than 10% of your stack, consider how commited you are to the hand, you are near the CT..... make a plan! ie' I will go allin if the flush doesn't come, but fold to a bet if it does'.... once you commit 1/3 of your stack vs a single opponent, you are commited. don't put in more than 1/3 of your starting stack and then fold, at this point the pot is at least as big as the remaining money, and you would have to consider yourself less than a 33% favourite to make folding the right play.

---------------------------

stack to pot ratios

commitment decisions are a balance of the risk vs the reward. the risk is the remaining smaller stack size, the reward is the pot.... this can be expressed as a ratio, and it can help you to make the right decisions as well as enable you to put villains in difficult calling spots with the right bet sizing.

The stack to pot ratio is better explained by those that understand it better ( i need to brush up my ring game skills) but you should find something with a google search.

I have used the book ' professional no limit hold'em' by flynn/mehta/miller as a reference and recommend the content therein.

edit: here's what looks like a good online reference
this was also a good read
fold equity is another cocept you should incorporate carefully into your game

__________________
http://realityrsv.blogspot.co.uk/
Twitter @RealityRSV

I think it is important to not be too results orientated. No matter how sharp you are live you can replay through hands and see whether you were ahead or behind in given situations, whether you gave your opponent implied calling odds or not etc.

The problem with TAG is that it can be quite predictable, people expect you to c-bet all the time and can have a decent sense of what your ranges are if you are not careful. This can mean they can sometimes chase you and exploit you when they catch or they can play moves on you with certain positions with any hand.

If you are playing TAG well and pricing your pots right then so what if they get lucky sometimes, you will win in the long run. If not then you could play an adaptive strategy...

If your c-bets are always called then they have no value as c-bets in terms of bluff/aggression potential. Their value is entirely in whether they are the best hand or not. If your cbets are being called all the time then you are probably overcommitting when your flops are not hitting. You can mix it up a bit (c-bet less, reraise sometimes etc) which if done right can lower your exposure to bits of luck going against you except where you have priced the villain right.