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Call or fold? Advice & Strategy  | 
05-08-2008, 08:15 PM
| | | |  Call or fold?
This was a huge bet. I watched her flop a royal flush, flop a str8 and river a flush in the few hands before this one. I had a real bad feeling.
PokerStars Game #17289317532: Tournament #87615684, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2008/05/08 - 15:02:59 (ET)
Table '87615684 8' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Poker anne (13907 in chips)
Seat 2: KS Cards (4258 in chips)
Seat 3: Cham3leon (3870 in chips)
Seat 4: CardLovinCat (14185 in chips)
Seat 5: ThePokrMnky (19571 in chips)
Seat 7: mercl8 (21728 in chips)
Seat 8: mimidoudou (11960 in chips)
Seat 9: Dansiek (13662 in chips)
Poker anne: posts the ante 25
KS Cards: posts the ante 25
Cham3leon: posts the ante 25
CardLovinCat: posts the ante 25
ThePokrMnky: posts the ante 25
mercl8: posts the ante 25
mimidoudou: posts the ante 25
Dansiek: posts the ante 25
Dansiek: posts small blind 200
Poker anne: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to CardLovinCat [Jd Kd]
KS Cards: folds
Cham3leon: folds
CardLovinCat: calls 400
ThePokrMnky: folds
mercl8: folds
mimidoudou: folds
Dansiek: calls 200
Poker anne: checks
*** FLOP *** [Jh Jc 4c]
Dansiek: checks
Poker anne: checks
CardLovinCat: bets 400
Dansiek: calls 400
Poker anne: calls 400
*** TURN *** [Jh Jc 4c] [2s]
Dansiek: checks
Poker anne: checks
CardLovinCat: bets 2000
Dansiek: folds
Poker anne: calls 2000
*** RIVER *** [Jh Jc 4c 2s] [7d]
Poker anne: checks
CardLovinCat: bets 5200
Poker anne: raises 5882 to 11082 and is all-in
CardLovinCat: ? | | |
05-08-2008, 09:33 PM
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 Outside shot at boat but likely JJJ with lower kicker. I personally am calling and if she has a boat so be it.
My issue more is not with the call it is with how you found yourself here in the first place. Why are you calling with this hand? If I play here I either raise raise PF or fold. Had you done that you would likely not be in this spot now.
I find so many players get into trouble late in hands because of the hands they limp with. You can't lose chips when you fold pre-flop and NL is about position and aggression. At least that's my opinion. | | |
05-08-2008, 09:47 PM
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Well out of all the hand possibilities, you have the 9th best possible hand. The best hand possible, quad Jacks, is not a possibility here. There are 7 hands that have you beat. J7, J4, J2, 77, 44, 22, AJ. My first instinct would be to call. But if I had the same bad feeling you said you had then a fold would be the right play. But is it a play I could make? Probably not. In a real world scenario for me, this hand would have happened around 11:00 p.m. after a night where I didn't get enough sleep and I have been awake for 16 hours and my thought process wouldn't nearly be as clear as it is now. So of course I would call only to find out my opponent was holding J4.
I think Fink said it best when he said, and I'm paraphrasing here: "I have a hard time calling an over sized bet when one card can beat you.
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The best you can do is forgive. | | |
05-08-2008, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wisak7  I think Fink said it best when he said, and I'm paraphrasing here: "I have a hard time calling an over sized bet when one card can beat you. | The thing is, though, villains bet is undersized - Cat is getting nearly 4:1 on a call.
With those odds, I would have to call, but I'd also avoid a situation like this in the first place. Open-limping, particularly with high blinds, is a losing play. You could get raised by someone stealing (out goes your blind), or you allow the blinds to play the hand - and being that they didn't raise, really the only thing you can put them on is NOT premium (and even then there's a distinct possibility).
The flop bet was also rather weak. Minimum bets do nothing more than build the pot - making you pot committed and allowing your opponents to chase cheaply. Had you made a bigger bet, you may have determined early whether your hand was good or not. I think a bet of 1000 would have been appropriate on that flop (pot was 1400 at the time).
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05-08-2008, 10:07 PM
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[quote=k06mars;172029]The thing is, though, villains bet is undersized - Cat is getting nearly 4:1 on a call.
Maybe I'm not looking at this the right way, but after the river card, what is the difference if cat was getting 4:1 on a call or 100: 1 on a call? If villain has one of the 7 hands that can beat her she's dead in the water anyway.
__________________
The best you can do is forgive. | | |
05-09-2008, 01:22 AM
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[quote=wisak7;172030] Quote:
Originally Posted by k06mars The thing is, though, villains bet is undersized - Cat is getting nearly 4:1 on a call.
Maybe I'm not looking at this the right way, but after the river card, what is the difference if cat was getting 4:1 on a call or 100: 1 on a call? If villain has one of the 7 hands that can beat her she's dead in the water anyway. | True, but does Cat have a dead-on read that villain has one of the 7 hands that beat her? If she does, then you are correct - doesn't matter if you are getting 4:1 or 100:1. However, if Cat places villain on a range that includes holdings outside those 7 hands, 4:1 is certainly enough to make the call.
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05-09-2008, 04:14 AM
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Well this hand is obv. must call. Whether you are beat is another story. Are you really going to fold trips with k kicker here, with no flush or straight on board, and already having over 2/3s your stack in the pot and getting around 5 to 1 odds to call. You must call and who knows what she has. | | |
05-09-2008, 03:00 PM
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I think most of you would have called, as I did. I made a major mistake and it is a weakness of mine I need to change. Maybe lessons like this one will get it through my think skull. As rocket and mars and others have stated earlier I need to fold or raise going in with these type of hands. I don't think she would have been in the hand to begin with if I had raised. With that said I would have not had a great shot at a huge pot. Mixed feelings still. When I limp like this it is usually after the players know I don't enter a pot without a good hand.
Here is the results of my call:
CardLovinCat: calls 5882
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Poker anne: shows [Js 4h] (a full house, Jacks full of Fours)
CardLovinCat: shows [Jd Kd] (three of a kind, Jacks)
Dansiek said, "nh"
Poker anne collected 28764 from pot
CardLovinCat said, "ouch"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 28764 | Rake 0
Board [Jh Jc 4c 2s 7d]
Seat 1: Poker anne (big blind) showed [Js 4h] and won (28764) with a full house, Jacks full of Fours
Seat 2: KS Cards folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Cham3leon folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: CardLovinCat showed [Jd Kd] and lost with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 5: ThePokrMnky folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: mercl8 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: mimidoudou (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Dansiek (small blind) folded on the Turn
I'm surprised I said ouch when I was just crippled....lol.  | | |
05-09-2008, 03:02 PM
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[quote=wisak7;172030] Quote:
Originally Posted by k06mars The thing is, though, villains bet is undersized - Cat is getting nearly 4:1 on a call.
Maybe I'm not looking at this the right way, but after the river card, what is the difference if cat was getting 4:1 on a call or 100: 1 on a call? If villain has one of the 7 hands that can beat her she's dead in the water anyway. | I need to say that is a big IF. In all honesty can you fold?
BTW wisak, I just found out you have the same first name as my husband. 
Last edited by CardLovinCat : 05-09-2008 at 03:04 PM.
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05-09-2008, 06:37 PM
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My first thought was the same as Rocket that a raise or a fold maybe would of been better preflop.Having said that, circumstances, opponents and previous hands come into play and we can't say that a limp with KJ is out of the question - not always.
Here, it's pretty clear that J4 isn't calling a raise from the BB.
My second thought was the small bet on the flop. I agree with Mars there.
With 1400 in the pot, I'd likely be betting more than 400 here.
If a flush draw wants to call, I want him to pay for the privilege or to be making an error when he does call.
I'm generally betting both my draws and my good hands. This means that at times I may make a bet when I might of checked - and I don't get a call. I will admit that sometimes my plays mean I don't get paid off on my good hands as much as I'd like to.
I make mistakes but my intention when I'm likely holding the best hand is to build a good pot for myself. A 400 chip bet offers your opponents very favourable odds - and you've ended up building a pot for somebody else to take.
I think hands like this are tricky and I don't think there's a definate answer as to what is the correct play. It's easy to point out mistakes after-the-fact when we look at a hand history. Forgetting the preflop play for a minute...
On the flop there are 2 opponents only and we want action.
Our previous plays and our opponents previous plays are crucial in making a decision how to act.
If anyone wants to discuss this further I'd be glad to read your posts.
There are situations where I can see that a check may be a good choice, where a bigger bet might be a good play and where a small probe bet may work also - and If we'd made a standard raise preflop then a supposed continuation bet of 700-800 may be a good bet in many cases.
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Last edited by 7letters : 05-09-2008 at 10:50 PM.
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